Author Topic: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live  (Read 814467 times)

Offline ayman

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1960 on: December 03, 2015, 04:56:30 PM »
Cheap RE won't remain if it continues to explode.

Can make some seriously good arguments for Staten Island as well...
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Offline AJK

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1961 on: December 03, 2015, 05:00:26 PM »
I'd love to create a google doc (I'd be happy to host it), where we could life the objective pros/cons to individual cities, e.g. no state income tax, or lower than avg real estate, or crime.

It's too hard to search this thread.
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Offline FlyFirst

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1962 on: December 03, 2015, 05:21:09 PM »
I'd love to create a google doc (I'd be happy to host it), where we could life the objective pros/cons to individual cities, e.g. no state income tax, or lower than avg real estate, or crime.

It's too hard to search this thread.
+1000 wonderful idea.

Offline mb1

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1963 on: December 03, 2015, 10:03:26 PM »
I dunno... it seems the main conversation revolves are CLE not necessarily because Dan does a good job selling it--he does--but just that it's an easy place to sell--it appears to be.

Aside from the lack of restaurants (seems like the growth will affect that positively) and major airports (not changing), it's a rather compelling place to live. Cheap real estate, a number of schools, low crime and eminently commutable to other cities.

Can anyone argue as persuasively for Brooklyn? Teaneck? Miami? Chicago? LA? Atlanta?
Miami:
If you would rather the hot and humid summers then the cold and snowy winters it has a lot of advantages.

LA:
Price of housing seems to be the main con.

The other ones are harder arguments to make but mostly come down to subjective reasons.

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1964 on: December 04, 2015, 07:50:32 AM »
Miami:
If you would rather the hot and humid summers then the cold and snowy winters it has a lot of advantages.

LA:
Price of housing seems to be the main con.

The other ones are harder arguments to make but mostly come down to subjective reasons.
I'd assume most people here don't make their choice of where to live solely based on weather. Most of the discussion is around those subjective issues
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Offline CS1

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1965 on: December 04, 2015, 10:17:57 AM »
Miami:
If you would rather the hot and humid summers then the cold and snowy winters it has a lot of advantages.
LA:
Price of housing seems to be the main con.
The other ones are harder arguments to make but mostly come down to subjective reasons.

Another objective 'con' would be the distance to the East Coast if that's where most of the family lives.
Even with points tickets, there is still a flying time and logistics arrangement scenario for every trip that doesn't exist if you live within a 4-6 hour drive time...
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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1966 on: December 04, 2015, 11:15:25 AM »

Can anyone argue as persuasively for Brooklyn? Teaneck? Miami? Chicago? LA? Atlanta?
Cleveland has a certain balance to it. I think the draw of places like "Brooklyn? Teaneck? Miami? Chicago? LA?" is that they have some massive advantages that could outweigh Cleveland's middle of the road type living.

Basically each city has certain major things that could sell itself over a balanced city. For example
Brooklyn has jobs and the biggest most happening jewish life in the US.
Teaneck is commutable to NY jobs while having yards and great community for mo-dox...
Miami has no state income tax and doesn't get cold. You can go to the beach every day of the year almost and if you live on the ocean/water it's a real treat and it feels like you are living in paradise.
Chicago also lots of jobs and well chicago is a tough sell thinking about it. Seems similar to cleveland but more expensive.
LA has also a great Jewish scene and the lifestyle is laid back which I loved living there, and the weather is simply the best in the US 48.
Then there's cleveland that has terrible winters and not too many jobs if you aren't a professional something like many many Jews living in Brooklyn. There aren't dozens or hundreds of frum stores to work at, there are very limited amount of Jewish activities/services compared to NY.

I have no idea what I'm saying anymore, but everyone can argue just as much for any city, it just depends what's important to you.

Another objective 'con' would be the distance to the East Coast if that's where most of the family lives.
Even with points tickets, there is still a flying time and logistics arrangement scenario for every trip that doesn't exist if you live within a 4-6 hour drive time...
Family location and Job are probably the 2 biggest factors of where people live.
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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1967 on: December 04, 2015, 11:26:16 AM »
Cleveland has a certain balance to it. I think the draw of places like "Brooklyn? Teaneck? Miami? Chicago? LA?" is that they have some massive advantages that could outweigh Cleveland's middle of the road type living.
Basically each city has certain major things that could sell itself over a balanced city. For example
....
....
I have no idea what I'm saying anymore, but everyone can argue just as much for any city, it just depends what's important to you.
 Family location and Job are probably the 2 biggest factors of where people live.

True -- and once your children get older, then local schools, preferences, and priorities play a part as well...
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Offline @Yehuda

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1968 on: December 04, 2015, 11:31:57 AM »
I dunno... it seems the main conversation revolves are CLE not necessarily because Dan does a good job selling it--he does--but just that it's an easy place to sell--it appears to be.

Aside from the lack of restaurants (seems like the growth will affect that positively) and major airports (not changing), it's a rather compelling place to live. Cheap real estate, a number of schools, low crime and eminently commutable to other cities.

Can anyone argue as persuasively for Brooklyn? Teaneck? Miami? Chicago? LA? Atlanta?
From what I've heard here and what I've heard about many other medium-sized OOT communities from friends, CLE sounds just on par with them - like DEN, ATL, PHX, the options in Texas - there are a few Shuls to choose from, a few restaurants but not many, cheap housing and cheap taxes. From what I've heard, I'd say the only aspect of CLE that really stands out is the variety of schools. I haven't done a ton of research in this, but it seems like most of these medium-sized OOT places have 1 school of each "sect" to choose from, while CLE has 1-2 schools per "sect". CMIIW

Offline Dan

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1969 on: December 04, 2015, 11:33:06 AM »
From what I've heard here and what I've heard about many other medium-sized OOT communities from friends, CLE sounds just on par with them - like DEN, ATL, PHX, the options in Texas - there are a few Shuls to choose from, a few restaurants but not many, cheap housing and cheap taxes. From what I've heard, I'd say the only aspect of CLE that really stands out is the variety of schools. I haven't done a ton of research in this, but it seems like most of these medium-sized OOT places have 1 school of each "sect" to choose from, while CLE has 1-2 schools per "sect". CMIIW
Go through the Pros in the OP.
I don't think they apply to most cities.
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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1970 on: December 04, 2015, 11:35:19 AM »
CLE is a much larger community than DEN, PHX or the options in Texas.
Just look at the schooling options, they don't compare.
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Offline @Yehuda

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1971 on: December 04, 2015, 11:54:06 AM »
Go through the Pros in the OP.
I don't think they apply to most cities.
I'm only "very" familiar with DEN, so I'll use that as my basis. The other places I've just "heard" about.

-Beachwood, OH is the safest Jewish community I've ever seen.  You can sleep at night without every being awoken by sirens.
No sirens in DEN, but there has been a gang of people breaking into houses recently, unfortunately.
-Housing is very cheap.
Same for DEN.
-Parking is plentiful and traffic is nothing compared to most cities.  There's also cheap train service connecting the jewish community with downtown and the airport.
No issue with parking or traffic either. A lightrail from the airport to the community is almost complete.
-In University Heights and Cleveland Heights you can get $4,250 (K-8)-$5,700 (9-12) per year vouchers to use for private schools regardless of your income level.
Don't think they have these vouchers.
-Free busing for kids to the Jewish Schools.
Don't have this in DEN, but the modern school is walking distance from the modern community and the Yeshivish schools are walking distance from the Yeshivish community (IINM). Modern families sometimes/often send their kids to the Yeshivish school and those kids need carpool.
-The streets are clean and everyone has their own garage.  There's no alternate side business and no parking meters.
Same for DEN in the community; I don't know about downtown.
-Taxes are moderate, much less than NYC and LA, though more than MIA.
Property tax is insanely low; I don't know about sales tax.
-Stores have generous policies compared to the NYC area.
Not sure what this means. Most stores are the same big name chains.
-People are generally quite friendly and willing to help you out/midwest attitude and slower paced.
+1 to DEN.
-Kids seem to come out of schools like the Academy with their heads on straight, generally not nearly as corrupt as some that I've seen come out of  LA/Miami/NYC.
As I originally said, the schooling isn't great in DEN. Bais Yaakov has fantastic academics and learning, but a modern family would need to reinforce their beliefs at home and help their children not get influenced/hurt by the school's mindset and rules, if they so desire. The boys Yeshiva has subpar academics; I'm not sure about it's learning. The modern school has subpar academics and a MO-not machmir mindset.
-Tons of young couples have moved to CLE in recent years due to very low cost of living, high-paying medical field jobs, and for Case Western's dental, law, business, and medical school.
Don't know about the Yeshivish community, but he modern community has seen an influx of young couples (30s with kids), however, to the more MO-not machmir Shul/school. Not sure about jobs. Downtown has many big firms and there are several hospitals in the area. There are many doctors in the modern community FWIW.
-There is a rejuvenated downtown core with multiple sports teams, a plethora of museums, water activities, beaches, comedy clubs, broadway shows, a smoke-free casino, etc.  Other nearby activities include the NFL, Rock and Roll, and inventors hall of fames, an emerald necklace of hiking trails and national parks, and the world's greatest roller coaster park.
MUCH BETTER football team in DEN :P, Six Flags in downtown, and plenty of museums, shows, etc. Of course, DEN's main pull is it's location just 1-2 hours away from different Rockies' options including Vail and Rocky Mountain National Park. Pretty sure DEN wins the Outdoors Award of any OOT community.
-Many major cities (Baltimore, Chicago, Detroit, NYC, Toronto, etc) are within driving distance.
Definitely a negative is that it's far from the East Coast, and there are no Jewish communities within driving distance. LA is a 2 hour flight away. For someone with family in NY and no family in DEN, that can obviously be a big issue as already discussed.
-Every 4 years your vote really means something.
Same for DEN.

I'll add one more point: most people don't know this but DEN get appx 300 days of sunshine a year and generally is not this cold, snowy place that most people think of it as. A short drive will get you all the snow you want, but the city itself has quite nice weather. Plus, being so high above sea level means the air is always fresher.

CLE is a much larger community than DEN, PHX or the options in Texas.
Just look at the schooling options, they don't compare.
I guess I'm underestimating how large CLE is. Perhaps I need to visit. :)

Offline cozmohoot

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1972 on: December 04, 2015, 12:08:09 PM »
Denver air is probably not as fresh since laws have changed....puff puff.

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1973 on: December 04, 2015, 12:10:17 PM »
Denver air is probably not as fresh since laws have changed....puff puff.
Same could be said for Seattle, but at least Seattle is surrounded by water which cleans the air periodically.

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1974 on: December 04, 2015, 12:11:58 PM »
Denver air is probably not as fresh since laws have changed....puff puff.
Is that a Pro or a Con?
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Offline David Smith

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1975 on: December 04, 2015, 12:13:04 PM »
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1976 on: December 04, 2015, 12:13:21 PM »
Is that a Pro or a Con?
Good point. I assume for most it's a con, but could be great for some.

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1977 on: December 04, 2015, 12:14:35 PM »


Nice, coherent,  comprehensive, and looks pretty objective. I like it!

Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1978 on: December 04, 2015, 12:15:51 PM »
@jj Chicago just a more expensive CLE? But... SHALLOTS?!?!
:-P

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Re: The Pros And Cons Of Where You Live
« Reply #1979 on: December 04, 2015, 12:19:17 PM »
"-Housing is very cheap."
"Same for DEN."

Not. Even. Close.
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