Should US based couples obtain a marriage license and be legally married?

[David Smith]

If you have a relegious ceromony, but you neglected to get a licence from the state, you are not legally married.



And if "Marriage" includes the union between two men, then I am not "Married". What I have, and the ceromony that i was part of, is not valid between two men.

+1.
The legal definition of marriage has nothing to do with the religious definition of marriage. If two men or woman can be married, then the definition of marriage has nothing to do with the marital relationship, but rather is defined by registering yourself as married. If our religion doesn't consider their marriages a marriage, then obviously they have nothing to do with each other, and their laws don't have to consider our marriages a marriage.
It's completely commonplace for people to live together for years, have children together, build their lives together, and yet consider themselves only boyfriend and girlfriend. The word marriage obviously has no relationship to our religions definition, if two people of the same gender are considered married and these people aren't. Hence, just because you're religiously married, doesn't have any bearing on your legal status.

Keep telling yourself what you want but at the end of the day you know, while you may not admit it, that you are scamming the government and don't give a rats ass about the legal definition of marriage. If suddenly married people had taxes cut in half every one of these liars would be running to get married even if marriage included allowing a man to marry his brother.

Well, yes. The definition of marriage, according to the law, is filling out some  paperwork declaring yourself married. Nothing more, and nothing less. If there was a tax law that said that if you sign your name on a piece of paper, you get 50% off of your taxes, everyone would sign it. Who cares who else is eligible to sign that paper?  Being as eligibility is defined solely by that piece of paper, it is impossible to be a scammer, so long as you signed it. The signing of the paper paper doesn't attest to anything further than the signing of the paper itself.

[hvaces42]

Would Could be tax program fraud.

FTFY

When you say control the income...thats a telltale sign.

[Aaaron]

It's also state-dependent. MD recognizes religious marriage ceremonies as a legal marriage, even without a license being filed.

[Shauly101]

my Rabbi would not perform the Chupah for one not having a Marriage License

[ckmk47]

I'm older than most around here.  But i grew up when 'living in sin' was still sort of frowned upon.  I've had my kids get marriage licenses.  A yiddishe couple shouldn't be living together 'unmarried' - even if only technically.
Financially, filing taxes as 2 'head of households' has an advantage, so I understand why people do it.  But setting yourself up at an advantage to get more government programs, is a shame.  Do things to set yourself up for a better income instead.

[hvaces42]

I'm older than most around here.  But i grew up when 'living in sin' was still sort of frowned upon.  I've had my kids get marriage licenses.  A yiddishe couple shouldn't be living together 'unmarried' - even if only technically.
Financially, filing taxes as 2 'head of households' has an advantage, so I understand why people do it.  But setting yourself up at an DISadvantage to get more government programs, is a shame.  Do things to set yourself up for a better income instead.

FTFY One limits the other.

Oh and on THAT discussion...

[SamKey]

If only for the aguna law, I'd say it's recommended to get legally married.

[Redbull3]

my Rabbi would not perform the Chupah for one not having a Marriage License

Same here

[ExGingi]

Wow. There's been some strong language and emotions here.

Let me introduce some additional possibilities and facts, and then I'd like to hear what the naysayers say (except if the Rov won't do it, that's a separate issue).

1. In many states and counties one could file for a domestic partnership. You are welcome to call the IRS and ask them if you are required to file as married if you are living with a domestic partner. I haven't called, but my guess is that they would say they would tell you that you MAY NOT file as married.

2. Quite famously, attorney Ron Kuby lives with a partner and has a daughter, but is not married. Do you think a person with such a public persona would risk losing his law license by doing something illegal?

3. Given what the government has turned legal marriage into, is it really "living in sin" if I say I am married according to Jewish religious law, but not under US law, after considering the pros and cons of Civil Law married status, I have made a choice to forgo the benefits of legal married status?

[skyguy918]

FTFY

When you say control the income...thats a telltale sign.

That's a separate question from the basic concept of not getting legally married, no?

I mean, I realize you're probably saying they go hand in hand in practice, but that's not really relevant to the actual question.

[ExGingi]

If only for the aguna law, I'd say it's recommended to get legally married.

I am not saying that there aren't any legal advantages to marriage. I do think that with proper planning one can get most of those advantages without the disadvantages of legal marriage.

[elit]

Not taking sides in this argument but I hear a difference between paying less taxes and taking more government programs

[ExGingi]

FTFY

When you say control the income...thats a telltale sign.

Not one bit.

One person who followed my advice has a business making several hundreds of thousands since he stood under the Chupah, every year he checks with CPA prior to December 31 and pays his אשת חיל a commission, which is then deposited into her separate bank account. His corporation is also split ownership.

As far as I can tell this is 100% legal.

[incendia]

In NY its illegal for clergy to marry a couple without a marriage license

If you arent married you partner may not be eligible for your health insurance

Also they may not be able to make health decisions for you, it also makes inheritance problems tougher.

There may be issues with loans and mortgages too.




Just because you dont recognize gay marriage  doesnt mean you can hold your self out of it.  Im going to assume that many here that dont want to recognize gay marriage as legitimate will not recognize Reformed temples as legitimate.  But if you wanted to set up your own shteble you would most probably take advantage of the tax benefits of doing so.




There are several ways for married people to set up business entities to legally save taxes


Doesmt it feel a little scummy to say we live together and we have two children together but for tax purposes we have two households?

[yuneeq]

Yet you consider yourself married and love as married people. You tell people your married introduce each other as husband and wife. Your married and you should report as such to the government. The fact your doing it to get money from the government you wouldn't otherwise get erases all valid arguments. That's the only reason they do it. It's total bs and dishonest.

I can call my self rich, but if I have $2 in income then I'm not legally rich.

[ExGingi]

https://verdict.justia.com/2015/08/04/unorthodox-wedding-a-new-york-judge-says-no-license-no-marriage

[skyguy918]

In NY its illegal for clergy to marry a couple without a marriage license

This can't be true. Source?

[ExGingi]

In NY its illegal for clergy to marry a couple without a marriage license

This can't be true. Source?

I would phrase that a little differently: could you please point to the section of the code that discusses marriage and clergy. I would be very interested to learn what different state laws are.  It seems like MD might be different than NY.

[ExGingi]

So I found this: http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-law/pen-sect-255-00.html

However, what happens if a clergyman performs a wedding ceremony with the clear understanding and consent of all parties that a civily valid marriage IS NOT being solemnized?

[incendia]

I would phrase that a little differently: could you please point to the section of the code that discusses marriage and clergy. I would be very interested to learn what different state laws are.  It seems like MD might be different than NY.

 
http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/domestic-relations-law/dom-sect-17.html

Also see here for a good overview note that many states require some sort of reporting or sending in of the marriage certificate

http://www.usmarriagelaws.com/marriage-license/officiants-requirements.shtml