Author Topic: LIFE INSURANCE  (Read 62979 times)

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 13775
  • Total likes: 5777
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 18
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. HakhelNation.com אותו היום כוהנים עומדים בגדרים ובפרצות וחצוצרות של זהב בידיהם תוקעים ומריעים ותוקעים, כל כהן שאין בידו חצוצרה אומרים דומה שאין כהן הוא 🎺
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #720 on: August 16, 2022, 03:06:48 PM »
"plan B" - I meant an alternative. not necessarily a worse alternative.
So I'm understanding:

You're saying there's no annual tax on the investment income and the death benefit would increase over the years.
So the only down side seems to be the large outlay.  Which I think is quite prohibitive, but becomes an individual's choice.
The benefit is the "set and forget" aspect.  That avoids the "I'll catch up on  my premiums later" - lack of savings.

Here is what you're missing: none of this is about alternatives to savings or life insurance. It is meant to show a person how repositioning existing cash from whatever savings (not investment or growth, but safe savings) vehicle might work. In that context "large outlay" isn't necessarily a downside (I have had clients ask me "what's the maximum I can put into the policy this year").

It was brought to this discussion for one and only purpose, to show the cost of PUAs as non-expensive using real life numbers. I could show you plenty of more examples (mostly from my own family policies), but that just happened to have crossed my desk on that day.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline yos9694

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 1766
  • Total likes: 794
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #721 on: August 16, 2022, 05:31:18 PM »
Do you really think I would advise MECing a policy? (in the example I mentioned part of the reason for leaving the term rider is to avoid MEC).

Would I advise everyone to just get their coverage by buying PUAs? Absolutely not (with the exception of properly structured blended juvenile policies, for those that care for them)! All I was addressing is the COST question of the PUAs. In my book, a small sales charge that is recouped in 2 years isn't considered expensive (though admittedly, PUAs aren't as lucrative as they used to be pre-2022).

As for needing another insurance product, what's wrong with that? Do people only have one tool in their toolbox? Do some tools serve multiple purposes?

OK this is starting to sound more reasonable than your earlier posts. Your pitch that PUA is the lowest cost insurance doesn't sit well with me as a soundbite, it does make sense when understood fully in context. I'm all for mixing complementary financial products to get a custom needs based plan, thats the value of a good FA. But most people need to crawl before they walk, and you'd be scaring off a good number of people with a coverage gap by approaching the topic with a WL/PUA plan

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 13775
  • Total likes: 5777
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 18
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. HakhelNation.com אותו היום כוהנים עומדים בגדרים ובפרצות וחצוצרות של זהב בידיהם תוקעים ומריעים ותוקעים, כל כהן שאין בידו חצוצרה אומרים דומה שאין כהן הוא 🎺
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #722 on: August 16, 2022, 06:34:56 PM »
But most people need to crawl before they walk, and you'd be scaring off a good number of people with a coverage gap by approaching the topic with a WL/PUA plan

I hear you, and fully agree that people should be working with a professional rather than insist on a DIY approach. Get recommendations for someone you can trust, and work with them.

Also to be noted, that term is great, cheap, fine and dandy for preferred risks. Once people have underwriting challenges, the equation might change significantly.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 13775
  • Total likes: 5777
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 18
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. HakhelNation.com אותו היום כוהנים עומדים בגדרים ובפרצות וחצוצרות של זהב בידיהם תוקעים ומריעים ותוקעים, כל כהן שאין בידו חצוצרה אומרים דומה שאין כהן הוא 🎺
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #723 on: August 16, 2022, 07:13:35 PM »
Could I go off topic for a sec?
My employer is offering term up to 500k (for $52/month)
And no qns asked up to 50k for 5/month
I'm definitely hoping to get more than either of those ....
Is there any reason to get these? Or is it a total hoax.

If you are in young and in excellent health, you can probably get term for less. It is when there are underwriting challenges where employer sponsored group term might be a great deal due to limited or no individual underwriting.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Josef.koney

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2014
  • Posts: 2013
  • Total likes: 19
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #724 on: August 16, 2022, 09:16:09 PM »
If you are in young and in excellent health, you can probably get term for less. It is when there are underwriting challenges where employer sponsored group term might be a great deal due to limited or no individual underwriting.
Thanks.

Offline ushdadude

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 6077
  • Total likes: 690
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #725 on: August 17, 2022, 11:32:10 AM »
Here is what you're missing: none of this is about alternatives to savings or life insurance. It is meant to show a person how repositioning existing cash from whatever savings (not investment or growth, but safe savings) vehicle might work. In that context "large outlay" isn't necessarily a downside (I have had clients ask me "what's the maximum I can put into the policy this year").

It was brought to this discussion for one and only purpose, to show the cost of PUAs as non-expensive using real life numbers. I could show you plenty of more examples (mostly from my own family policies), but that just happened to have crossed my desk on that day.
Interesting. Would it be easy to get the cash back out if the need came up?

Offline Joe4007

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2013
  • Posts: 4049
  • Total likes: 128
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #726 on: August 17, 2022, 12:41:27 PM »
Interesting. Would it be easy to get the cash back out if the need came up?
Yes. You can borrow against the cash value and as mentioned above, in some cases, continue earning (via net positive spread) on the borrowed cash.

Offline ushdadude

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 6077
  • Total likes: 690
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #727 on: August 17, 2022, 12:47:30 PM »
Yes. You can borrow against the cash value and as mentioned above, in some cases, continue earning (via net positive spread) on the borrowed cash.
borrow with interest?

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 13775
  • Total likes: 5777
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 18
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. HakhelNation.com אותו היום כוהנים עומדים בגדרים ובפרצות וחצוצרות של זהב בידיהם תוקעים ומריעים ותוקעים, כל כהן שאין בידו חצוצרה אומרים דומה שאין כהן הוא 🎺
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #728 on: August 17, 2022, 03:54:33 PM »
Interesting. Would it be easy to get the cash back out if the need came up?

How easy is it to get cash back out of the equity in one's home after paying down their mortgage?

WL and PUA are NOT cash. But they are highly liquid safe assets that are easily convertible into cash.

Most people find it beneficial to keep the asset and borrow against it (just like most people would prefer to borrow against their home equity rather than sell their house, except that due to the safety and liquidity profile it is much easier to borrow against WL) at a low spread (sometimes even resulting in positive arbitrage).

I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Joe4007

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2013
  • Posts: 4049
  • Total likes: 128
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #729 on: August 17, 2022, 04:23:03 PM »
borrow with interest?
Yes. Though the cash value continues earning dividends.

Offline ushdadude

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 6077
  • Total likes: 690
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #730 on: August 17, 2022, 04:44:21 PM »
How easy is it to get cash back out of the equity in one's home after paying down their mortgage?

WL and PUA are NOT cash. But they are highly liquid safe assets that are easily convertible into cash.

Most people find it beneficial to keep the asset and borrow against it (just like most people would prefer to borrow against their home equity rather than sell their house, except that due to the safety and liquidity profile it is much easier to borrow against WL) at a low spread (sometimes even resulting in positive arbitrage).


Makes sense.


So I guess someone who has extra cash, and depending on their time horizon and their risk aversion, this can be something to talk to their FA about.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 13775
  • Total likes: 5777
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 18
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. HakhelNation.com אותו היום כוהנים עומדים בגדרים ובפרצות וחצוצרות של זהב בידיהם תוקעים ומריעים ותוקעים, כל כהן שאין בידו חצוצרה אומרים דומה שאין כהן הוא 🎺
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #731 on: August 17, 2022, 04:57:35 PM »

Makes sense.


So I guess someone who has extra cash, and depending on their time horizon and their risk aversion, this can be something to talk to their FA about.

WL and PUAs are IMHO an excellent alternative for the safe/cash allocation that is not needed in the short term.

WL also has other overall enhancements to one's financial well being by virtue of the permanent death benefit which allows for more tax efficient and security of cash flow at retirement. But that's a different discussion.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline knowitall

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 704
  • Total likes: 61
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: 08701
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #732 on: October 03, 2022, 08:53:57 PM »
WL and PUAs are IMHO an excellent alternative for the safe/cash allocation that is not needed in the short term.

WL also has other overall enhancements to one's financial well being by virtue of the permanent death benefit which allows for more tax efficient and security of cash flow at retirement. But that's a different discussion.
I always thought:
Get term, then short term/safe money goes in CDs/treasuries/bonds
Long term money- low cost index funds, preferably 401k/IRA before taxable.

Where does WL and PUA fit into a middle class guy's plan?


Offline Josef.koney

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2014
  • Posts: 2013
  • Total likes: 19
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #733 on: November 16, 2022, 06:31:24 PM »
I could use some advice.
There is a gene that my wife's family has, it's not actually one of the qns, but they asked if there's any advised produces not done yet.
The Dr advised her to get a blood test to find out if she has the gene or not.
I wanted to get insurance before finding out. But with this qn, Im assuming they won't give me untill they find out ...
Anyone have any advice/ideas?
Is there maybe some companies that don't ask so many qns?

Offline ckmk47

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 7459
  • Total likes: 739
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #734 on: November 16, 2022, 09:13:57 PM »
I could use some advice.
There is a gene that my wife's family has, it's not actually one of the qns, but they asked if there's any advised produces not done yet.
The Dr advised her to get a blood test to find out if she has the gene or not.
I wanted to get insurance before finding out. But with this qn, Im assuming they won't give me untill they find out ...
Anyone have any advice/ideas?
Is there maybe some companies that don't ask so many qns?
If it's in the dr's notes, they'll see it when they get his records.  Clarify with your agent, but this blood test may not be a "procedure" that's recommended.  The insurance company means a heart bypass or ulcer surgery.  I don't think they mean 'are you up to date with your mammograms and endoscopy?'
My favorite cause: cssy.org

Offline Josef.koney

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2014
  • Posts: 2013
  • Total likes: 19
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #735 on: November 17, 2022, 07:05:34 PM »
If it's in the dr's notes, they'll see it when they get his records.  Clarify with your agent, but this blood test may not be a "procedure" that's recommended.  The insurance company means a heart bypass or ulcer surgery.  I don't think they mean 'are you up to date with your mammograms and endoscopy?'
Are you saying it make no dif if I find a way around it bc they will see it in the notes?

It asks directly if there was any blood test recommended...
Would there be less qns on lower payout amounts? Or some other way for it not to be seen?
[/IMG][/IMG]

Offline ckmk47

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 7459
  • Total likes: 739
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #736 on: November 17, 2022, 07:50:57 PM »
I don't think genetic testing is a "diagnostic" test.
You can say no and play dumb if they come back at you.


(I'm not in the insurance industry.)
My favorite cause: cssy.org

Offline yelped

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Mar 2015
  • Posts: 8629
  • Total likes: 2509
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 36
    • View Profile
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #737 on: November 17, 2022, 08:45:42 PM »
Why don't you ask (and work with) a good insurance agent? Paging @ExGingi.

Offline Yosel

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jan 2010
  • Posts: 992
  • Total likes: 61
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #738 on: November 20, 2022, 11:28:57 AM »
Are you saying it make no dif if I find a way around it bc they will see it in the notes?

It asks directly if there was any blood test recommended...
Would there be less qns on lower payout amounts? Or some other way for it not to be seen?
[/IMG][/IMG]
some companies will ask the same however “in the past 90 days” instead of five years.
You may want to wait 90 days and answer the question truthfully.

Offline yeshivabucher

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2018
  • Posts: 1921
  • Total likes: 524
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Monsey
  • Programs: Travel Agent, Marriott Gold, Hertz PC, National EE, Uber VIP, SPG Gold
Re: LIFE INSURANCE
« Reply #739 on: November 29, 2022, 09:04:54 PM »
someone offered me a 200k whole life policy for about 200 a month im mid 20 healthy does this make sence to do? i currently have 10 year term 1mill for each me and my wife