The Lufthansa Anti-Semitism Fiasco In Frankfurt

[yelped]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelgoldstein/2022/05/13/lufthansa-denies-boarding-to-more-than-100-jewish-passengers/?sh=4fd4789768f6

Pretty decent, though went off on a half-baked tangent at the end.

[Yehuda57]

Pretty decent, though went off on a half-baked tangent at the end.

It's opinion, not news

[chff]

https://aclj.org/battling-antisemitism/antisemitic-outrage-lufthansa-airline-bans-jewish-passengers-from-flight-in-germany-as-german-police-surround-them-aclj-retained-to-defend-them

https://twitter.com/JaySekulow/status/1525241033440772096

[Happyguy]

This was definitely the best result of all this publicity

[Something Fishy]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/lawyers-plan-suit-against-lufthansa-over-jewish-passengers/2022/05/13/3039fa58-d304-11ec-886b-df76183d233f_story.html

[yesitsme]

https://twitter.com/OneJerseySchorr/status/1525214800258777088

[biobook]

Now that the story has gotten the coverage it has, I'm also not sure what value there is in keeping at it, but I'm curious to hear your reasoning.

Seems to be a moot point now, but here are the thoughts I had over the past week:


1. Trying to micromanage the wording of an apology sounds too much like a grade school teacher chastising a misbehaving child to “Apologize again, but this time let me see that you really mean it.”   More important than an apology is an explanation of what they’ll do to prevent such events in the future.  And a thorough investigation takes time, so pressing for an immediate response seems unrealistic.

2. If the goal is to raise public awareness and support, then the generalized wrongdoing (collective punishment) might garner more support than the specific one (antisemitism).  If Jews, Africaners, Pollanders will be punished for the misbehavior of a few, then presumably everyone is at risk.  Even an obnoxious German-speaking neo-Nazi skinhead could cause all German-speakers to be punished.  I’m not denying that antisemitism was involved, but I would expect that a story about antisemitism interests a small fraction of news consumers, while a story about collective punishment would make it relevant to many more, so more likely to be republished and read.

3. DDMS seems to attract cringeworthy comments.  Discussion is often limited to name-calling (“racist”, “self-hating Jew”, “New York Slimes”).  Posters claim similarities to the Holocaust, which anywhere else would lead to the response that the poster is clearly ignorant of the Holocaust and should be required to take a course on the subject.  It is embarrassing to see posters lack awareness of how their comments mirror those of LH.  LH is criticized for considering all Jews guilty, but some Jews feel justified to consider all Chareidim guilty, and some Chareidim feel justified to consider all Germans guilty…Who are these commenters?  They don’t reflect the vast majority of Jews I know IRL.

4. Doesn’t seem worth the energy to pick on LH employee for referring to the 130 people as a “group”.  True, “group” can refer to those who purchased a group ticket, but its primary meaning is “an assembly of similar people or objects”, as in “A group of men were praying in the aisles”, which doesn’t necessarily imply that the men all bought tickets at a group rate or that they even knew each other prior to boarding.  They were in the same place, had some physical similarities, and so appeared to the viewer to be a group.

Did the FA think everyone was part of the same travel group?  Or were they just viewing them as a group because they all appeared Jewish?  Doesn’t matter, since in either case LH would have been in the wrong, so not worth harping on this aspect.

5. It seems unlikely to me that the pilot made multiple inflight announcements and agents reacted in such an extreme fashion due to “just one or two” men who refused to wear masks.  Not saying it’s impossible, but unlikely. Each passenger who Dan interviewed had only a partial view of the plane.  Presumably LH’s thorough investigation will include interviews of the FAs and pilot, to get the rest of the story.  If the FA tried to enforce mask compliance because other passengers had complained or had explained that they were immunocompromised, then they may be able to locate and interview those passengers as well.  Rather than continuing to pressure LH for unfairly punishing 130 well-behaved passengers, it seems worthwhile to wait to hear the fuller story they uncover.

6. It seems right that LH should compensate those passengers who were unfairly targeted.  But it also seems right that should not compensate those passengers who caused the problem in the first place.  How will those people be identified? 

7. DD rightly publicized the wrongdoing of LH, but every time the story is repeated it also publicizes the fact that the story starts with the wrongdoing of some visibly Jewish passengers.  LH’s behavior was much worse, but it’s the misbehaving chassidim that many will remember.  Continuing to keep the story in the public eye only encourages some to do their own investigation and photograph every instance they see of maskless chassidim on  mask-requiring flights.  Because, you know, it might happen. Perhaps it's better to let people forget...

[YitzyS]

Seems to be a moot point now, but here are the thoughts I had over the past week:

I cannot give this post a like, because there are many aspects that I don't necessarily agree with. However, I immensly appreciate biobook spending her time and writing up her (always insightful) perspective. I therefore decided to find another post of hers to give a like to. But I had some trouble finding a post that I had not already liked. But BH I found this one, and gave my like there.

I don't have time to give a point-by-point answer now, but maybe later I'll have more time and write a post.

[Dan]

Seems to be a moot point now, but here are the thoughts I had over the past week:

1. Trying to micromanage the wording of an apology sounds too much like a grade school teacher chastising a misbehaving child to “Apologize again, but this time let me see that you really mean it.”   More important than an apology is an explanation of what they’ll do to prevent such events in the future.  And a thorough investigation takes time, so pressing for an immediate response seems unrealistic.

And yet the ADL also felt it was worth pointing out that the apology was not acceptable and was in fact problematic.

2. If the goal is to raise public awareness and support, then the generalized wrongdoing (collective punishment) might garner more support than the specific one (antisemitism).  If Jews, Africaners, Pollanders will be punished for the misbehavior of a few, then presumably everyone is at risk.  Even an obnoxious German-speaking neo-Nazi skinhead could cause all German-speakers to be punished.  I’m not denying that antisemitism was involved, but I would expect that a story about antisemitism interests a small fraction of news consumers, while a story about collective punishment would make it relevant to many more, so more likely to be republished and read.

Public awareness of what? If we're not showing that there is anti-semitism in LH then we're just raising awareness that airlines punish people that might look alike?

More specifically, isn't this like changing BLM to ALM? True, but takes away from what happened.

3. DDMS seems to attract cringeworthy comments.  Discussion is often limited to name-calling (“racist”, “self-hating Jew”, “New York Slimes”).  Posters claim similarities to the Holocaust, which anywhere else would lead to the response that the poster is clearly ignorant of the Holocaust and should be required to take a course on the subject.  It is embarrassing to see posters lack awareness of how their comments mirror those of LH.  LH is criticized for considering all Jews guilty, but some Jews feel justified to consider all Chareidim guilty, and some Chareidim feel justified to consider all Germans guilty…Who are these commenters?  They don’t reflect the vast majority of Jews I know IRL.

Perhaps comments should have been disabled, but I hate stifling discourse, no matter how coarse. Comment sections across the web are typically cesspools and don't reflect common opinion.
Nobody has been able to find a solution for that.

4. Doesn’t seem worth the energy to pick on LH employee for referring to the 130 people as a “group”.  True, “group” can refer to those who purchased a group ticket, but its primary meaning is “an assembly of similar people or objects”, as in “A group of men were praying in the aisles”, which doesn’t necessarily imply that the men all bought tickets at a group rate or that they even knew each other prior to boarding.  They were in the same place, had some physical similarities, and so appeared to the viewer to be a group.

Did the FA think everyone was part of the same travel group?  Or were they just viewing them as a group because they all appeared Jewish?  Doesn’t matter, since in either case LH would have been in the wrong, so not worth harping on this aspect.

FAs and surely higher ups can tell who is together from their manifest. When non-Jews on the plane were also having mask issues, how is this a group other than LH making them into a group for being Jewish? Isn't that itself problematic and doubled down in the apology?

5. It seems unlikely to me that the pilot made multiple inflight announcements and agents reacted in such an extreme fashion due to “just one or two” men who refused to wear masks.  Not saying it’s impossible, but unlikely. Each passenger who Dan interviewed had only a partial view of the plane.  Presumably LH’s thorough investigation will include interviews of the FAs and pilot, to get the rest of the story.  If the FA tried to enforce mask compliance because other passengers had complained or had explained that they were immunocompromised, then they may be able to locate and interview those passengers as well.  Rather than continuing to pressure LH for unfairly punishing 130 well-behaved passengers, it seems worthwhile to wait to hear the fuller story they uncover.

Let's say it was 10? 20? 40? Does it matter?
Procedure is to write up an individual incident report on the plane and that didn't happen.  Non-Jews who had their own incidents were not punished, but every Jew was punished. The story will be good to know, but I'm not sure it changes anything.

6. It seems right that LH should compensate those passengers who were unfairly targeted.  But it also seems right that should not compensate those passengers who caused the problem in the first place.  How will those people be identified? 

Sure, but had LH done that there would be no story here. This is their own fault.

7. DD rightly publicized the wrongdoing of LH, but every time the story is repeated it also publicizes the fact that the story starts with the wrongdoing of some visibly Jewish passengers.  LH’s behavior was much worse, but it’s the misbehaving chassidim that many will remember.  Continuing to keep the story in the public eye only encourages some to do their own investigation and photograph every instance they see of maskless chassidim on  mask-requiring flights.  Because, you know, it might happen. Perhaps it's better to let people forget...

If some people misbehaving is a reason not to call out racism or discrimination, then those things would never be called out. There's almost always something that sets it off.

Imagine if the Black community said not to demonstrate over Mr. Floyd because he was trying to pass fake bills?
Yes, it raises awareness that there are Black criminals, but that didn't justify the outcome.

In the 1920s/1930s, many so called enlightened Jews thought that the anti-Jew rhetoric in Germany was due to Jews who clung to an ancient religion and looked different and that they would be safe. They didn't call out the anti-semitism because they were embarrassed by the religious Jews. Do you think they were justified in that approach so as not to raise more awareness of them and their actions in public?

[Choshive Yid]

I cannot give this post a like, because there are many aspects that I don't necessarily agree with. However, I immensly appreciate biobook spending her time and writing up her (always insightful) perspective. I therefore decided to find another post of hers to give a like to. But I had some trouble finding a post that I had not already liked. But BH I found this one, and gave my like there.

I don't have time to give a point-by-point answer now, but maybe later I'll have more time and write a post.

You take this "like" thing very seriously . Next time you ask for likes, I won't like that post because you are asking for likes straight up, but I will give you a like on another post for the effort in taking the time to ask for likes. (If I can find a post that you don't ask for likes...)

[Sam 77]

You take this "like" thing very seriously

He's trying to beat Dan.

[Choshive Yid]

https://twitter.com/OneJerseySchorr/status/1525214800258777088

I happen to dislike when people argue that it would've been different if it was a black person. I see it often and I think it's often taken overboard, but even if/when it's not, I don't like when people argue like that. 

I think it's okay to assume someone is antisemitic if they do something discriminatory (like denying 150+ Jews boarding), but to say everyone is antisemitic because they would've reacted differently if it was a black person bothers me. We got a lot of coverage from a lot of media, and plenty of support. Of course, there were some who didn't care, and some Goiyim and Yidden who blamed it on the Jews, not LH. But there are also racists. To compare and say "Only 100 people cared what happened to us, but 150 would've cared if it happened to you" is a bad argument IMO. And by the way, when a police officer arrests a black person, they say "It probably wouldn't have happened if I was white." The grass is always greener on the other side.

I appreciate the great gift Hashem gave me that I am Jewish, and I am not jealous of black people, nor do I think they have an easier or better life.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying I don't think it would've been different if it happened to blacks, but it's not something I like to worry about. There is so much blatant antisemitism going around, including terrorist attacks, hate speech, swastikas, boycotts agianst Israel, the UN, etc. and there are many ways to show that there is antisemitism, which are much greater arguments than "It would've caused a bigger uproar if He was black."

[yuneeq]

I happen to dislike when people argue that it would've been different if it was a black person. I see it often and I think it's often taken overboard, but even if/when it's not, I don't like when people argue like that. 

I think it's okay to assume someone is antisemitic if they do something discriminatory (like denying 150+ Jews boarding), but to say everyone is antisemitic because they would've reacted differently if it was a black person bothers me. We got a lot of coverage from a lot of media, and plenty of support. Of course, there were some who didn't care, and some Goiyim and Yidden who blamed it on the Jews, not LH. But there are also racists. To compare and say "Only 100 people cared what happened to us, but 150 would've cared if it happened to you" is a bad argument IMO. And by the way, when a police officer arrests a black person, they say "It probably wouldn't have happened if I was white." The grass is always greener on the other side.

I appreciate the great gift Hashem gave me that I am Jewish, and I am not jealous of black people, nor do I think they have an easier or better life.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying I don't think it would've been different if it happened to blacks, but it's not something I like to worry about. There is so much blatant antisemitism going around, including terrorist attacks, hate speech, swastikas, boycotts agianst Israel, the UN, etc. and there are many ways to show that there is antisemitism, which are much greater arguments than "It would've caused a bigger uproar if He was black."

It's not about the amount of uproar. Plenty of people that read the story think there was no wrongdoing by LH. But change the victims to black and suddenly those same people believe that LH is racist. Replacing Jews or Asians with Blacks is a simple test for whether society believes something is wrong or not.

[Choshive Yid]

It's not about the amount of uproar. Plenty of people that read the story think there was no wrongdoing by LH. But change the victims to black and suddenly those same people believe that LH is racist. Replacing Jews or Asians with Blacks is a simple test for whether society believes something is wrong or not.

Doesn't uproar mean how society reacts to what happened?

[yuneeq]

Doesn't uproar mean how society reacts to what happened?

What you’re talking about is - Group beats up man vs group beats up child. Both wrong but one has bigger uproar. In this case some think only one scenario is wrong at all.

[S209]

Seems to be a moot point now, but here are the thoughts I had over the past week:

I strongly disagree with most of this post but didn’t have the time to address it when I read it so I’m glad Dan took the time to address most of the points I differed on.

Just know Dan doesn’t usually respond in such detail, so you’re getting special treatment.

[Dan]

I strongly disagree with most of this post but didn’t have the time to address it when I read it so I’m glad Dan took the time to address most of the points I differed on.

Just know Dan doesn’t usually respond in such detail, so you’re getting special treatment.

I certainly respect @biobook's opinion, even when we disagree. And I always enjoy a healthy debate

[biobook]

@Dan, I should preface this by saying that I applaud your in-depth research and compelling writing, and I do think it was completely appropriate to post it.  My comments were in response to JJ's question, Where do we go from here?  And the extensive comments were only because I was asked. I tried to articulate the thoughts going through my mind over the past week, but reserve the right to change my mind about all of this...

And yet the ADL also felt it was worth pointing out that the apology was not acceptable and was in fact problematic.

Then let the ADL take over.  They have experience and they have lawyers, so they have a better sense of how to frame this and how to proceed further.  Also, now that passengers have contacted their own lawyers, LH will probably not give further public apologies anyway, so it doesn't seem useful to continue asking them to perfect their apology.

Public awareness of what? If we're not showing that there is anti-semitism in LH then we're just raising awareness that airlines punish people that might look alike?

On DD your audience is interested in the case because it involves antisemitism.  But when you are pushing msm to publicize it to their audience, then yes, I think the more general case would gain more traction.

Consider the well-known “First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out – because I was not a socialist…”  or to paraphrase your final comment, “First they came for the Jews of the ancient religion, and I did not speak out – because I was a modern enlightened Jew …”  This is human nature.  We hear about mistreatment of others – prisoners, foreigners, immigrants, whatever – and we don’t get involved because we don’t identify with them.  So if we want to move people to our side,  it's more effective to start with the ending, “Then they came for me”, that is, to have them realize This could happen to me, too.  In this case, to emphasize the more general problem, even though in this specific case the victims are Jewish. 

Perhaps comments should have been disabled, but I hate stifling discourse, no matter how coarse. Comment sections across the web are typically cesspools and don't reflect common opinion.
Nobody has been able to find a solution for that.

I have unfiltered internet, so I’ve occasionally seen some of those cesspools, and avoid them.  But I also know that the sites I generally frequent have more respectful and thoughtful people commenting, so civil discourse is possible.

You may “hate stifling discourse”, but your commenters are doing that job for you.  What rational person would join the conversation, seeing the epithets hurled at those who disagree?  And what impression of orthodox Jews does your site give to readers of msm when they follow the link to DD and see these comments?

Saying "this happens everywhere" doesn't feel like an acceptable response.

FAs and surely higher ups can tell who is together from their manifest. When non-Jews on the plane were also having mask issues, how is this a group other than LH making them into a group for being Jewish? Isn't that itself problematic and doubled down in the apology?

You’re listing all the things LH did wrong – not checking the manifest, lumping all Jews together even though they weren’t traveling together – and I agree with you.  And I think we’d also agree that even if they had checked the manifest, they would still be wrong to punish a group of 50 based on the misbehavior of 1-2 in that group.
 
My point was only that you had a strong story even without this detail.  When you include everything you’ve learned you run the risk that many readers will skim and lose the thread of the story, so a shorter, more focused article is often better.  It seemed to me that repeating that people were not on a group ticket could have been left “on the cutting room floor” without weakening your general argument.

Procedure is to write up an individual incident report on the plane .

Do we know that that's the standard procedure at LH?

Let's say it was 10? 20? 40? Does it matter?

For your original story, no, it doesn’t matter.  If 40 people had refused to obey instructions, it would still have been wrong to penalize the larger number of mask-wearers. 

But looking forward, yes, I think it does matter, because people tend to remember the most recent thing they hear.  And if LH comes out in a week or two with proof that there were 40 Jewish anti-maskers, then that will be what people will remember, and they’ll question your credibility.  The more you press the argument that there were only one or two non-maskers, the more loudly you can expect others to then proclaim that there were really a lot more, if that turns out to be the case.  So allowing it to be settled privately might keep unseemly details out of the news.

Sure, but had LH done that there would be no story here. This is their own fault.

I’m not asking who’s at fault, but rather how the story will unfold if it remains in the news.  I’m guessing that the misbehaving passengers would rather not be outed publicly, and I don't think any of us want to see more hateful comments directed at them.

If some people misbehaving is a reason not to call out racism or discrimination, then those things would never be called out. There's almost always something that sets it off.

You have called it out.  I just don't think there's any benefit in us pressing it further, and we can let the legal process take over.  Which seems to be the same conclusion you've come too. 

[Yehuda57]

Thanks @biobook for taking the time, and as the one that asked, I feel bad that I'm going to say I don't have the time today to respond. I do feel that most are in the agreement that Dan's job is done, and both Dan and I have posted here to that effect. We're probably mostly in agreement to all your points, the lines are just getting a bit crossed with people thinking you were writing about publishing the story in the first place.

And @YitzyS, likes are free, for goodness sake. Imho, when you appreciate someone putting in effort to drive a positive and thoughtful discourse, that's more worthy of a like even if you disagree than a post you agree with but doesn't contribute to a meaningful discussion.

[Dan]

the lines are just getting a bit crossed with people thinking you were writing about publishing the story in the first place.

+1, this all makes more sense now. The advocacy part of my job was done when it got the MSM and ADL attention it deserved.
Though I still want to make a wrap-up post or 2.