Author Topic: Random Halacha  (Read 8395 times)

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Random Halacha
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2022, 04:53:56 AM »
True. And welcome to DDF!
How you ever made it so long without joining us is a mystery.
The answer is I've been reading for years without ever posting. Why? Because.
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Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Random Halacha
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2022, 04:39:21 AM »
More a dvar Torah than a halacha, but meinyan l'inyan.

VAYETSEI – THE CONSEQUENCES OF DECEIT                Yehonasan Gefen

Bereishis, 29:25: “And it was in the morning, behold it was Leah…!”

Bereishis Rabbah, 70:19: “He (Yaakov) said to her (Leah), What?! You are a deceiver the daughter of a deceiver!  Did I not call in the night, ‘Rachel’ and you answered me?”  She said to him, “And is there not a teacher without students…Didn’t your father cry out, ‘Esav’ and you answered him?

Yefas Toar: “Just like you lied in order to fulfil your mother’s command, so too I lied to fulfil my father’s command, and I learnt to do that from you!

In Parshas Toldos, Yaakov Avinu, famously misleads his father at the command of his mother, in order that Yaakov receives the blessing that Yitzchak planned to give to Esav.  The commentaries offer a number of explanations as to why this was justified.[1]  Yet in Parshas Vayetsei there are a number of difficulties that Yaakov faces which seem to be directly measure for measure for his actions in deceiving Yitzchak.

One example is in the episode of Lavan’s deceit of Yaakov in switching Rachel for Leah. The Midrash states that when Yaakov indignantly accuses Leah of lying, she replies that she learnt from his deceit of Yitzchak.  The obvious question is, if Yaakov was permitted and indeed obligated to mislead Yitzchak why did he suffer the consequences with Leah?

Another echo in Vayetsei of his actions in Toldos is the repetition of the exact words in both stories.  When Esav discovers Yaakov’s deception, the Torah tells us, “Esav raised his voice and wept.”[2]  In the beginning of Vayetsei, when Yaakov first meets Rachel, the Torah uses the exact same lashon: “And he raised his voice and wept.”[3]  What is the connection between these two episodes?  One explanation of Rashi of why Yaakov wept is because he did not have any money or property to bring to Rachel.  Esav had sent his son, Eliphaz to kill Yaakov, but Yaakov persuaded him to not harm him, rather to take all his belongings, because a poor person is considered as if he is dead.  Thus, the fact that Yaakov had nothing to give Rachel was a direct consequence of his misleading of Yitzchak, as it led to Eliphaz chasing Yaakov and taking everything from him.[4]  This again indicates that Yaakov was in some way punished for his actions with Yitzchak.[5]

Another example of a damaging consequence of Yaakov’s trickery is found in the Medrash[6] – when Esav discovered what had happened he let out a great cry of pain.[7]  Hundreds of years later, measure for measure, Yaakov’s descendant, Mordechai, let out a similar kind of cry when Haman, Esav’s descendant, decreed the destruction of the Jewish people. Again, this begs the question, why should Yaakov or his descendants be punished for a justifiable course of action?

This question can be answered based on a Netsiv who discusses the Midrash about Mordechai.  The Netsiv notes that Yitzchak Avinu also endured great pain when he heard that he had been tricked – the Torah relates that he trembled greatly when he realized what had happened.  Why, then was Yaakov not punished for the pain he caused Yitzchak, while he was punished for that which he inflicted on Esav?  He answers that Yaakov had absolutely no pleasure at the pain that he caused Yitzchak in deceiving him, therefore he was not punished for the pain that Yitzchak experienced.  However, he felt some small measure of happiness at Esav’s distress.  Accordingly, he was punished for that element of joy he felt at Esav’s loss.  Thus, we see, according to the Netsiv, that even Yaakov Avinu, on some slight level, was subject to the feeling of joy at success at the expense of someone else.[8]

This approach can be used to explain the other sources that teach that Yaakov was punished for his actions in taking the blessings.  Even though he was correct to mislead Yitzchak and Esav, nonetheless, he was held to account according to his lofty level, for the fact that he had some small enjoyment at the suffering of Esav that was not Leshem Shamayim.

Most of us are not put in situations where we need to lie based on a Prophecy, so how do these ideas apply to us?  There are a number of Mitzvos that can involve causing pain or harm to someone else – the most common are rebuke which can often hurt the person being rebuked, or lashon hara l’toeles which can cause him damage at times.  However, if a person does one of these Mitzvos with even a small measure of impure intentions or in the wrong way, then the potential Mitzva can be transformed into an Aveirah.  For example, if one rebukes his fellow in public, then he transgresses the serious sin of Halbanas Panim B’Rabim[9]  Likewise, there are seven conditions for speaking constructive lashon hara, and one of them is that the speaker cannot have any person enjoyment from the negative speech.  If he does, then his speech falls into the category of forbidden lashon hara.

Accordingly, it is very important for a person to learn the halachos of these Mitzvos carefully, receive guidance about how to proceed, and to be intellectually honest about his true intentions.
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Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Random Halacha
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2022, 11:19:23 AM »
I'm having fun reviewing these halachos now. Figured I would post it here.

Tevilas Keilim: Materials that require tevila (does not include a discussion regarding coatings)
A. The Torah lists gold, silver, copper, iron, tin and lead. Chazal also required glass due to its metal-like properties – it can be melted down and reformed. A beracha is also required on glass.
      1. Regarding a metal that was not listed in the Torah – such as aluminum – R Wosner says it is also deoraysa, R’ Moshe says it is derabonon (and requires a beracha, like glass), and a few poskim say the tevila should be without a beracha.
      2. Steel requires tevila with a beracha.
      3. Porcelain: The Pischei Teshuva brings the Yaavetz who labels it earthenware and requires no tevila. R’ Moshe and many others agree. However, R’ Elyashiv and a few others say to tovel it without a beracha.
      4. Crystal, pyrex and duralex are all mostly glass and require tevila with a beracha.
      5. Corelle is a machlokes. (R’ Moshe allegedly said it does not need tevila.) Hechsher Keilim says to tovel it without a beracha, and Rav Ribiat and Artscroll say to be tovel it with a beracha.
      6. China and other ceramics are a machlokes. The kli inside is earthenware, but it has a thin glass coating. Some say it is toveled without a beracha, and others say it needs no tevila.
      7. Rubber keilim need no tevila.
      8. The Chazon Ish ruled that plastic requires no tevila. Almost everyone agrees, including Rav Moshe, though a few sefarim led by the Minchas Yitzchak were machmir to require tevila without a beracha. Rav Berkovits suggests, “It is kedai to tovel plastic.” This is because it is similar to glass, in that it can be melted down and reused (at least to an extent). [Personally I would consider this a wild chumrah, but R.B. is family with the Minchas Yitzchak and probably didn't want to say straight out not like him.]

« Last Edit: December 22, 2022, 12:59:03 PM by mevinyavin »
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Offline chinagel

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Re: Random Halacha
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2022, 12:12:09 PM »
Rav Ribiat and Artscroll say to be tovel it with a beracha.
Who is this Posek? Never heard of him.

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Random Halacha
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2022, 12:24:50 PM »
Who is this Posek? Never heard of him.
Me, neither.
"The Kosher Kitchen" P. 458
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Random Halacha
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2022, 12:34:08 PM »
Where is this this Rav Moshe about Corelle and what exactly did they tell him about how it’s made? (RAF?) It’s a form of glass, glass needs tvila with a bracha.

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Random Halacha
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2022, 12:49:57 PM »
Where is this this Rav Moshe about Corelle and what exactly did they tell him about how it’s made? (RAF?) It’s a form of glass, glass needs tvila with a bracha.
Which is also what I thought before I learned anything in the sugya. Apparently they told him that it cannot be melted back into glass. L'Aniyas Daati I would not have thought this would be enough to change the halacha. There are certainly enough machmirim regardless... and I wasn't there when he was asked.

מסורת משה ח"ג יו"ד אות ס" ט, עמ' ר"ט( – "ושאלתי את רבינו בענין כלי קורל שהם כלים בינוניים בין חרס לזכוכית,
איך יהיה דינם לגבי טבילה ולגבי הכשרה, שהמדענים אומרים שהם ממש שיהי ולא בלעי, אבל אינם נעשים כזכוכית וגם אי
אפשר לתקנם כזכוכית. והשיב רבינו שמאחר שאי אפשר לתקנם כזכוכית, אינם בכלל גזירת זכוכית, דאינם דומים למתכות ואין
צורך טבילה".
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Random Halacha
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2022, 12:52:44 PM »
Which is also what I thought before I learned anything in the sugya. Apparently they told him that it cannot be melted back into glass. L'Aniyas Daati I would not have thought this would be enough to change the halacha. There are certainly enough machmirim regardless... and I wasn't there when he was asked.

מסורת משה ח"ג יו"ד אות ס" ט, עמ' ר"ט( – "ושאלתי את רבינו בענין כלי קורל שהם כלים בינוניים בין חרס לזכוכית,
איך יהיה דינם לגבי טבילה ולגבי הכשרה, שהמדענים אומרים שהם ממש שיהי ולא בלעי, אבל אינם נעשים כזכוכית וגם אי
אפשר לתקנם כזכוכית. והשיב רבינו שמאחר שאי אפשר לתקנם כזכוכית, אינם בכלל גזירת זכוכית, דאינם דומים למתכות ואין
צורך טבילה".
I do not think these stories are worth anything לענין הלכה למעשה. He’s responding directly to the way they presented the מציאות which isn’t a very adequate description. And that’s assuming its an accurate transcript of the conversation.

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Random Halacha
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2022, 12:59:45 PM »
I do not think these stories are worth anything לענין הלכה למעשה. He’s responding directly to the way they presented the מציאות which isn’t a very adequate description. And that’s assuming its an accurate transcript of the conversation.
I changed the post to "allegedly." By now there should be enough context for everyone.
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Offline dm123

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Re: Random Halacha
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2022, 01:41:27 PM »
Does anyone have access to Oholei yeshurun and can tell if it's the same as Masores Moshe referenced above or different?

Found from google:

Quote
The Halachic Status of Corningware and Corelle

Rav Aharon Felder (Oholei Yeshurun p 74) rules that Corelle essentially is not required to be immersed. However, it is preferable that it should be immersed.  This is explained by Rav Felder's (Oholei Yeshurun p.78 note 08) citation of Rav Feinstein's assertion that Corningware and Corelle are בספק, in doubt whether they are considered glass (and would require Tevila) or earthenware ( and would not require Tevila).

https://www.koltorah.org/halachah//tevilat-keilim-part-ii-by-rabbi-howard-jachter

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Re: Random Halacha
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2022, 02:08:00 PM »
Me, neither.
"The Kosher Kitchen" P. 458
It would be surprising for Rav Furst to say it needs a Bracha of Rav Moshe held out does not need tevila at all.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

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Re: Random Halacha
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2022, 02:15:41 PM »
Does anyone have access to Oholei yeshurun and can tell if it's the same as Masores Moshe referenced above or different?

Found from google:

https://www.koltorah.org/halachah//tevilat-keilim-part-ii-by-rabbi-howard-jachter
What a HORRIFIC distortion of what he actually says:





Besides, this was published only a couple years after corelle was introduced, and his safek very well may have hinged on lack of information which we now know.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2022, 02:35:13 PM by imayid2 »

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Re: Random Halacha
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2022, 02:33:42 PM »


What a distortion of what he actually says:

This seems to be an understatement. One is referring to hagala and the other to tevila.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

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Re: Random Halacha
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2022, 02:36:21 PM »
This seems to be an understatement. One is referring to hagala and the other to tevila.
Thats what I meant. edited for clarity

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Random Halacha
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2022, 02:44:24 PM »
It would be surprising for Rav Furst to say it needs a Bracha of Rav Moshe held out does not need tevila at all.
Another indication as to questionable reliability of the source for Rav Moshe.
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Re: Random Halacha
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2022, 09:15:44 PM »
This is being marketed as being about shidduchim but is really about LH in  the media
It would seem that there was an internal mix-up about which excerpt to make downloadable this week.
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Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Toveling a dedicated Kos Shel Eliyahu if you don't drink from it
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2023, 04:00:31 AM »
I was really enjoying the question, so: do you need to tovel a Kos Shel Eliyahu if you never use it to drink from?


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Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Toveling a dedicated Kos Shel Eliyahu if you don't drink from it
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2023, 09:20:17 AM »
I was really enjoying the question, so: do you need to tovel a Kos Shel Eliyahu if you never use it to drink from?
So your Makpid on Halacha for yourself but not Eliyahu HaNavi? He can be O'ver?