About that "jewish" wedding

[AsherO]

he is a sinner, not a poor marginalized suffering human.

Those two aren't mutually exclusive, especially not in this context. In fact, your very tone seems to be marginalizing him for succumbing to his tremendous nisayon, more than someone who slips up on a different prohibition where the nisayon might not be nearly as great.

[Definitions]

Is a male who sexually molests a male, giluy aryos for which yehareg v'al yaavor?

There are plenty of those in the frum community getting aliyos and what not... Certainly no big deal apparently only if they are 2 girls

Do you see the guy that makes a gay marriage (of course no actuall issurim involved only for the companionship - or at least thats what they claim) getting aliyos? Do you see people protesting that and getting worked up like here?

Actually let me rephrase that - I was comparing apples to oranges.

Do you see someone that announces to everyone how he molested other males getting aliyos?

[EliJelly]

IMHO the issue isn't about the two girls deciding to wed each other and their desire for a regular Jewish looking wedding. It's about the family and friend's attending and facilitating the wedding. The current shock is not about the action of sinning which is unfortunately rampant in all variations and sorts, with so many OTD etc. It's the legitimacy stamp given for such an abomination and depraved lifestyle. We have a reached a new low where frum looking people have publicly abandoned God and instead showed that liberal anti-Torah views and progressive political correctness is the way we gotta live our lives in 2023. THIS is the dangerous unprecedented matter that shocks everyone about this wedding.

[Definitions]

IMHO the issue isn't about the two girls deciding to wed each other and their desire for a regular Jewish looking wedding. It's about the family and friend's attending and facilitating the wedding. The current shock is not about the action of sinning which is unfortunately rampant in all variations and sorts, with so many OTD etc. It's the legitimacy stamp given for such an abomination and depraved lifestyle. We have a reached a new low where frum looking people have publicly abandoned God and instead showed that liberal anti-Torah views an progressive political correctness is the way we gotta live our lives in 2023. THIS is the dangerous unprecedented matter that shocks everyone about this wedding.

I don't know why your treating the attendees any different than the 2 girls.

[Lurker]

The minefield of harchakos here....

[chevron]

Do you not see the difference between a celebration of "marriage" and the above?
Cmon now.

It's not like they destroyed anybody's lives...

So 2 girls got married...

One guy has teivos and molests boys ..except in #2 it's actually aryos m'deoraysa and he's ruined lives...

[EliJelly]

It's not like they destroyed anybody's lives...

So 2 girls got married...

One guy has teivos and molests boys ..except in #2 it's actually aryos m'deoraysa and he's ruined lives...

Last try.

One is molesting because he's a depraved sick debauchee, the other one is promoting to legalize molestation.

אמר ר' הונא בשם ר' אידי: לא נתחתם גזר דינם של דור המבול ﬠד שכתבו קמיסטסין (פירוש כתובות) לזכר ולבהמה.

[Definitions]

Chevron I'll try a different way to explain my view. I think this will be more up your alley.

There's some things that silence is deafening since there's an elephant in the room. There are others that the silence isn't deafening because there's no elephant in the room. I can see that 2 girls getting married would be the latter in terms of the silence of the Torah.

An example of silence being deafening would be if someone fights with another person.

[moko]

Some people seem to be intentionally dense
 Thai is what the post was referencing....


This clearly supports gilui aryos with livesaving (sakanas nefashos) as a reason to support.

[EliJelly]

"Have some extra Maaser, donate to this great LGTB charity"

[mevinyavin]

I'm sticking out my neck, here, so be gentle.

I can't count the number of times I've heard RYBs assert, "Judaism is NOT a tolerant religion." It is interesting that the world outside seems to count tolerance as among the so-called Judeo-Christian values.
That said, I think we should manage to have enough empathy to imagine the path that led to this moment and be filled with rachmanus for the holy neshamos involved. Sure, make a clear statement, especially among those of us who are on the edge and need a clear assertion of what we believe. But also, ache inside. And daven for them and everyone involved. (I'm sure those present run the, ahem, rainbow from warped mindsets that truly believe this is the best to being dragged along for fear of alienating them further to being under the thumb of the former two without the gumption to protest.)

On another vein, I know people who have suffered greatly (just like @Yehudaa apparently does). Sometimes extraordinary tolerance is expected of their parents and acquaintances. Sometimes it may even be chillul of various halachos, lechallel Shabbos achas kidei sheyishmiru... (Which, granted, may not be muttar here.) More often there is no understanding that things will ever return to shimur, but life and death hang in the balance. I'm not the Rav who needed to decide what to say no absolutely to, when to merely make a statement of unacceptability, and when to keep one's mouth firmly shut. I do not know of any cases that went to this extreme and hope I never have to deal with them. But... for example: "When she comes down to breakfast at 12:30PM in her pajamas and eats at the table instead of sleeping the day away and eating like a hermit, that was a nisayon she passed. It may be that her parents never experienced a nisayon that bad in all their lives. And she passed it! If her parents react in any way other than nachas, it is obvious they have no idea what is going on in her head." -RYBs
And one thing is absolutely true - we have no idea what is going on in the heads of anyone at that wedding. So we shouldn't think we do, and judge them. We may have to make a statement but remember that, please.

[m65]

True, I know that nowadays "hate" has a new meaning, and unequivocally applies to any negative comment about the issue at hand, having said that:

Mussar isn't hate
Disgust isn't hate
Revulsion isn't hate
Aversion isn't hate
Sicken isn't hate
Unsupportive isn't hate
Frustration isn't hate
Disapproval isn't hate
Disagreement isn't hate


I don't think anyone has any business cursing them unless maybe a beis din

one who is incapable of true hate is not capable of true love

and btw avrohom avinu "hated" yishmael, he didnt just disaprove/disagree
"לחם וחמת מים" - ולא כסף וזהב לפי שהיה שונאו על שיצא לתרבות רעה
רש"י בראשית כ"א י"ד

[bochur22]

It's a new era. Homosexuality will likely be the biggest challenge of our generation. 15% of Americans identify as LGBT and 50% have considered a same-sex relationship - numbers that have been growing at a stable rate for decades.

I don't think the rate is actually that stable, especially since it there's a strong correlation to age and social media exposure

[Mordyk]

It's not like they destroyed anybody's lives...

So 2 girls got married...

One guy has teivos and molests boys ..except in #2 it's actually aryos m'deoraysa and he's ruined lives...

Why does your every response include a line about someone else sinning with sometheing else and getting away with it? Did you see anyone in our communities attempting to normalize molestation? Vs this?

[Moshe123]

I'm sticking out my neck, here, so be gentle.

I can't count the number of times I've heard RYBs assert, "Judaism is NOT a tolerant religion." It is interesting that the world outside seems to count tolerance as among the so-called Judeo-Christian values.
That said, I think we should manage to have enough empathy to imagine the path that led to this moment and be filled with rachmanus for the holy neshamos involved. Sure, make a clear statement, especially among those of us who are on the edge and need a clear assertion of what we believe. But also, ache inside. And daven for them and everyone involved. (I'm sure those present run the, ahem, rainbow from warped mindsets that truly believe this is the best to being dragged along for fear of alienating them further to being under the thumb of the former two without the gumption to protest.)

On another vein, I know people who have suffered greatly (just like @Yehudaa apparently does). Sometimes extraordinary tolerance is expected of their parents and acquaintances. Sometimes it may even be chillul of various halachos, lechallel Shabbos achas kidei sheyishmiru... (Which, granted, may not be muttar here.) More often there is no understanding that things will ever return to shimur, but life and death hang in the balance. I'm not the Rav who needed to decide what to say no absolutely to, when to merely make a statement of unacceptability, and when to keep one's mouth firmly shut. I do not know of any cases that went to this extreme and hope I never have to deal with them. But... for example: "When she comes down to breakfast at 12:30PM in her pajamas and eats at the table instead of sleeping the day away and eating like a hermit, that was a nisayon she passed. It may be that her parents never experienced a nisayon that bad in all their lives. And she passed it! If her parents react in any way other than nachas, it is obvious they have no idea what is going on in her head." -RYBs
And one thing is absolutely true - we have no idea what is going on in the heads of anyone at that wedding. So we shouldn't think we do, and judge them. We may have to make a statement but remember that, please.

How is this even relevant to the public celebration?

[mevinyavin]

How is this even relevant to the public celebration?

I pointed out that it is possible that some minds believe only this is enough to keep them, and that we have no idea how they got there nor what they are thinking.

(I'm sure those present run the, ahem, rainbow from warped mindsets that truly believe this is the best to being dragged along for fear of alienating them further to being under the thumb of the former two without the gumption to protest.)
...
And one thing is absolutely true - we have no idea what is going on in the heads of anyone at that wedding. So we shouldn't think we do, and judge them. We may have to make a statement but remember that, please.

[liosac]

I'm sticking out my neck, here, so be gentle.

I can't count the number of times I've heard RYBs assert, "Judaism is NOT a tolerant religion." It is interesting that the world outside seems to count tolerance as among the so-called Judeo-Christian values.
That said, I think we should manage to have enough empathy to imagine the path that led to this moment and be filled with rachmanus for the holy neshamos involved. Sure, make a clear statement, especially among those of us who are on the edge and need a clear assertion of what we believe. But also, ache inside. And daven for them and everyone involved. (I'm sure those present run the, ahem, rainbow from warped mindsets that truly believe this is the best to being dragged along for fear of alienating them further to being under the thumb of the former two without the gumption to protest.)

On another vein, I know people who have suffered greatly (just like @Yehudaa apparently does). Sometimes extraordinary tolerance is expected of their parents and acquaintances. Sometimes it may even be chillul of various halachos, lechallel Shabbos achas kidei sheyishmiru... (Which, granted, may not be muttar here.) More often there is no understanding that things will ever return to shimur, but life and death hang in the balance. I'm not the Rav who needed to decide what to say no absolutely to, when to merely make a statement of unacceptability, and when to keep one's mouth firmly shut. I do not know of any cases that went to this extreme and hope I never have to deal with them. But... for example: "When she comes down to breakfast at 12:30PM in her pajamas and eats at the table instead of sleeping the day away and eating like a hermit, that was a nisayon she passed. It may be that her parents never experienced a nisayon that bad in all their lives. And she passed it! If her parents react in any way other than nachas, it is obvious they have no idea what is going on in her head." -RYBs
And one thing is absolutely true - we have no idea what is going on in the heads of anyone at that wedding. So we shouldn't think we do, and judge them. We may have to make a statement but remember that, please.

I wonder if there were those making similar points when they observed the mass celebration of the עגל (which by the way also featured גילוי עריות) Perhaps that sentiment prevented them from joining בני לוי.

[haltkup]

I heard from Rabbi SB Cohn that his grandfather rabbi Avigder Miller would always talk in disgust about this topic and would write letters to any small time lawmaker that approved these lifestyles.
Someone asked him that it seems to not have any influence so why does he bother with his campaign. The rabbi explained that we all know g-d hates zima ( I think it’s the only place we find that language) and if g-d hates it so should we…if I don’t talk about it, tolerance & acceptance will subconsciously seep in to me, therefore I’m doing it for myself to always have that hatred in my heart even though I know it will have little effect on others

[Alexsei]

Every girl dreams of a wedding. More so in the Jewish world.

Maybe this is their dream and it just happens that they don't swim the same way every other female does but, they still dream of a wedding this way .

So, let them have it.

Today it's "Every girl dreams of a wedding. More so in the Jewish world"

Tomorrow it's their dream of having children together (ממזרים)

[liosac]

I heard from Rabbi SB Cohn that his grandfather rabbi Avigder Miller would always talk in disgust about this topic and would write letters to any small time lawmaker that approved these lifestyles.
Someone asked him that it seems to not have any influence so why does he bother with his campaign. The rabbi explained that we all know g-d hates zima ( I think it’s the only place we find that language) and if g-d hates it so should we…if I don’t talk about it, tolerance & acceptance will subconsciously seep in to me, therefore I’m doing it for myself to always have that hatred in my heart even though I know it will have little effect on others

On the other hand keep in mind the Chidushei Harim who said one who rolls in the mud gets dirty. The kind of morbid fascination with this story is not going to elevate one spiritually. Say your piece and then focus on עשה טוב.