About that "jewish" wedding

[imayid2]

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/372830

… we endure yet another “pride” month. For how long will we remain silent? The easy road is to say nothing, ignore it, move on, focus on other matters, and wait it out, even as a society built on certain moral (and biological) assumptions collapses around us. But it is because of that collapse and the effect that it is having on our children that silence is not an option, a simple protest needs to be registered, and a new path forward recommended.

There are no illusions, at this point, that we can have any influence on secular Jews, Israelis, or Americans on this issue. The “pride” agenda is one of the few things in which they actually believe as dogma, absolute and unquestionable. Dialogue, although not impossible, is difficult, for they have fabricated their own system of sin and virtue unmoored from traditional morality.

But it is the infiltration of this agenda into the Orthodox world that demands we raise our voices and state the obvious: the Torah world will never accept same-sex marriages or the cult of transgenderism. Period. We should stop pretending that accommodation is possible. It is not.

For almost two decades now, any open discussion of these matters has been stifled by the well-funded activists, with the now familiar litany of accusations: any dissenting voice endangers their lives, encourages bullying and suicide, is cruel and unkind, insensitive and a waste of our time and energy. Those who oppose the agenda are, by their definition, haters, and bigots, suffer from a phobia, and are all “obsessed.”

Some of these contentions are risible, others dubious, and some debatable, but together serve the purpose of suppressing any free and frank discussion of what this movement has engendered in broader society. This is the linguistic playbook they use. A complicit media serves its purposes and advances its agenda.

And too many rabbis have responded with such banalities as “there are more important issues to discuss,” “this requires nuance” (a word that apparently means “saying and doing nothing”), “now is not the time” (the appropriate time never comes), or pandering to the mob out of an excess of sensitivity and compassion – while fearing for their jobs, a loss of respect, cancel culture, media attacks, and the like.

And so, we refuse to face the issue head-on. Which means what?
It should be stated openly. The LGBT movement, especially in its Orthodox incarnation, is the modern rebellion against Torah, no different than any other rebellious movement against Torah in our history beginning with that of Korach. It makes no difference whether the rebellion is conscious or unconscious; rebellion it is.

The Conservative Jewish movement first strayed by abolishing the mechitzah in shuls, as part of its general conception of an evolving Mesorah. That revolution pales before the LGBT insurrection, which seeks to literally excise a prohibition from the Torah, mocks the very definition of marriage, denies the reality that God created human beings “male and female,” and not three or six or sixty-four genders, as some would have it. It is the very essence of a heretical movement.

Rather than be challenged and distanced, if necessary, as the non-Orthodox movements were, they are coddled, especially when they threaten to “leave Orthodoxy.” We then distort the Torah, and in the process cheat our children who think the Torah is cruel, incomprehensible, malleable, or man-made, and they soon lose respect for the Mesorah and create their own. Our youth are being raised to think that what is abnormal is quite normal, that what is unnatural is quite natural, and that what is a sign of mental illness is just self-actualization that should be encouraged, patronized, and subsidized. No wonder there is such mass confusion, dysfunction, and unhappiness.

Increasingly, Orthodox Jews are being compelled (in truth, many go quite willingly) to participate in charade weddings, complete with “clergy,” rings, blessings, a chuppah, and, of course, the broken glass. All this in the guise of “maintaining the friendship, rallying around the family, trying to keep the child in the fold” that he or she has already left – and in the process, they betray what is most dear to them and trample on the integrity of the Torah.
It is all one big game of pretend, in which no one is allowed to state the quiet part aloud: the emperor has no clothes! It is not that he is wearing alternative garb.
Do we ponder the ramifications of celebrating a sham wedding that defiles the very concept of marriage and family?
Do we even take a moment to consider that a four-year-old girl who thinks she is a boy needs her parents to take her to a competent mental health professional – not a surgeon?
It is hard to imagine a greater act of child abuse to which children – teens and younger – are being subjected, and all in the name of the golden calf of compassion.
Can’t we just admit that the pronoun game (individuals thinking they are plural) or the therian game (people thinking they are really animals) – is silly, and disturbing? Can’t we state publicly that an obvious-looking man or woman who claims to be non-binary is nonsensical? We help no one by mainstreaming mental illness or by egging on people who need therapy. And those who do not protest are accomplices to a rebellion against Torah.

Metaxas writes that many clergy fear being seen as “religious legalists rather than as loving and compassionate…” But he avers powerfully, “at what point does our silence encourage someone along in their sin and in their path away from God?” Indeed, one of the few prohibitions that remain is the contemporary one that abjures judgmentalism and declares that it is wrong to assert that sins are sins, banned by the Torah.

For too long we have been playing semantic games, such as “it is no sin to be a homosexual, but only to commit homosexual acts.” That is a distinction without a difference and a vacuous one at that. Just reflect on how inane it sounds in other contexts. For example, it is not against the Torah to be a thief, only to steal. It is not against the Torah to be a murderer, only to murder. But what makes one a thief or a murderer? Only by stealing something or murdering someone. But we would not say that a thief is always stealing, or a murderer is always murdering someone, nor would we term someone with larcenous tendencies a thief or homicidal tendencies a murderer.

Deeds matter more than thoughts or fantasies. But why then do we dance around the issue that a homosexual is one who has committed homosexual acts and not one who just has tendencies? No one’s tendencies are proscribed, only actions, as we all have sinful tendencies. But it is because the “pride” lobby – the only sin which has such a lobby – is purposely trying to dilute the gravity of the sin and excuse the sinner.

Certainly, we must love all sinners, including the homosexual. But is it really an act of love to ignore, rationalize, or celebrate his sin? Isn’t that really the opposite of love – to condemn someone to a life of sin without trying to help them overcome their urges and re-channel their energies? Do we really love the alcoholic when we ply him with liquor? Do we really love the slanderer when we feed her gossip so that she will then share it with others? Do we really love the adulterer when we procure for him new paramours because that is what he desires? Do we really love the thief when we suggest a ripe target?

There is an impasse in any reasoned discussion of these matters, given the threats, litigation, and cultural dominance, and because we have split into two camps. One camp fully embraces the new immorality as sacred and inviolable and demands legitimacy and acceptance from the Torah world – or else. They wish to control public discourse and impose their will on our schools, shuls, institutions, culture, and children. They have intimidated into silence most rabbis and opinion shapers in Jewish life.
The second camp – call them the traditionalists – pretend these groups do not exist, wish they would disappear, and, officially, hardly acknowledge their presence. This stagnation has caused many in the modern Orthodox camp to just surrender, accept the inevitability of their ultimate acceptance in Jewish life and with it the loss of credibility of modern Orthodoxy as a Torah movement or ideology.

Is there a way out of this morass? Yes, but it requires an honest conversation heretofore lacking.
The approach is straightforward. To the groups and activists, nothing. They need to be told in every forum, clearly and unequivocally, that the Torah is not changing, and recognition is not forthcoming. Orthodox institutions that celebrate same-sex weddings are as Orthodox (and faithful to Torah) as Orthodox institutions that would celebrate interfaith weddings that take place on Yom Kippur and serve pork.

In the public discussion of these issues, we must revive the language of sin, right and wrong, objective truth, morality, and G-d’s will as embodied in the Torah, as well as the Torah’s immutability.
To the groups and activists, nothing. It is sufficient to restate our objections and try to remove the matter from the public domain. (It would be prudent just to ignore the parades. It should be noted, however, that polls show that anywhere from 70-87% of Jerusalemites oppose having a pride parade in the holy city. Funny how the media trumpet polls showing the Likud’s or the judicial reforms’ unpopularity – and then ignore these polls which reflect the people’s desire to safeguard the sanctity of Yerushalayim.)

We owe nothing to a group. But the individual is different. As rabbis have always done, to the individual struggling privately with same-sex attraction, and to their families who rightly love them and want to help them, we must offer safe counsel, sound guidance, and compassion without indulging or celebrating sinful behavior. There must be assistance provided to those who desire to overcome these passions or are otherwise plagued by gender confusion or some other dysfunction, if and where possible.

We should reiterate that no person has the right to blackmail family, friends, or communities into violating the Halakha or their consciences. No child has the right to say to a parent, “Prove your love for me by eating this ham sandwich with me.” Privately we should encourage the parents to love and guide their wayward children, as we would privately encourage those children to observe as many mitzvot as they can – but never, ever, compromise a Torah value, eradicate, or celebrate a prohibition or make a mockery of all that is holy by sham ceremonies.

To the secular activists, wrapped in the euphoria of their current embrace by society’s elites, there is little that can be said, except perhaps, that they too should show tolerance to those who disagree with them. Yes, we retain the right to openly disagree with them, to respect and cherish the Torah’s morality, and even to publicly encourage its observance. The bullying of the activists has already unleashed a backlash, as we have recently seen in America with the boycotts of Bud Light, Target, the anti-Catholic mockery of LA Dodgers, etc. This will continue.

Cancel culture is a travesty – but it is also a two-way street. We should respond, without fear or rancor, by eschewing platitudes (compassion is a value but it is not the only or even primary value in Jewish life; misplaced mercy has always been a bane of Jewish existence) and by reinforcing the Torah’s morality at every opportunity in a pleasant and winsome way without compromising one whit. That would be courageous in today’s environment – and that would also be what once defined leadership.
Why even write about this subject when every word here has been stated and restated? So that we do not normalize and incentivize such behavior by indifference, by failure to protest. It is clear that the social media contagion has greatly contributed to the expansion of these movements, the confused identities of young people, and the concomitant assault on Torah and the Jewish family. Let it not be said that no voice was ever raised in protest.

[Dawie]

Last try.

One is molesting because he's a depraved sick debauchee, the other one is promoting to legalize molestation.

אמר ר' הונא בשם ר' אידי: לא נתחתם גזר דינם של דור המבול ﬠד שכתבו קמיסטסין (פירוש כתובות) לזכר ולבהמה.

and
Chullin 92a and Rashi top of 92b
רבי יהודה אומר אלו שלשים צדיקי אומות העולם שאומות העולם מתקיימים עליהם עולא אמר אלו שלשים מצות שקבלו עליהם בני נח ואין מקיימין אלא שלשה אחת
שאין כותבין כתובה לזכרים ואחת שאין שוקלין בשר המת במקולין ואחת שמכבדין את התורה:
Rashi
שאין כותבין כתובה לזכרים - דאע"פ שחשודין למשכב זכור ומייחדין להם זכר לתשמישן אין נוהגין קלות ראש במצוה זו כל כך שיכתבו להם כתובה:

[mevinyavin]

I wonder if there were those making similar points when they observed the mass celebration of the עגל (which by the way also featured גילוי עריות) Perhaps that sentiment prevented them from joining בני לוי.

Perhaps some indeed did not. It wouldn't have been a true nisayon if the temptation were not great, and the reward for the Leviim would not have been that great if their act was not correspondingly great.
There is one difference, though. In case it wasn't clear, I concede the need to speak out, in public, without mincing words, regarding the true metzius: we are not tolerant of this lifestyle.
All I was adding is that WE, here and now on this forum, cannot ASSUME that what they did makes them Reshaim gemurim (and not somewhere on the ones spectrum instead) because we don't know what motivated them to do it. We also don't know what motivated everyone else to show up. Or is anyone here connected to the maaseh?
If my Rebbe paskins on the maaseh and tells me exactly what to say, I would blow through these sfeikos as if they don't exist. But he didn't. I don't know for sure, but I would like to think that Moshe Rabbenu's call would have also been enough to do away with the sfeikos. (My ancestors did.)

[Alexsei]

Chevron I'll try a different way to explain my view. I think this will be more up your alley.

There's some things that silence is deafening since there's an elephant in the room. There are others that the silence isn't deafening because there's no elephant in the room. I can see that 2 girls getting married would be the latter in terms of the silence of the Torah.

An example of silence being deafening would be if someone fights with another person.

I hope my words will be interpreted properly.
The silence of our rabbunim are equally deafening.

[aygart]

The silence of our rabbunim are equally deafening.

Do they even know this happened?

[Sammy82]

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/372830

Well said. Let's see what blowback he gets now.
I hate labels, but what crowd is he usually associated with? I always thought somewhere around modern orthodox. Is that right? If so, he may have really put his career on the line. Kol hakavod for risking that.

[Pony]

Rav Avigdor Miller on Gay Rights

Q:
What should one do now that the Gay-Rights Bill has passed in New York?

A:
We have to maintain a constant battle against the Gay-Rights Bill. We have to bombard all the politicians with letters or other means to let them know we’re very angry; we won’t stand for it.
And I’ll explain what’s doing. This bill can be implemented in a soft-peddled way and it can be implemented in a militant way. If there will be a big angry reaction from all the citizenry, so they’ll be
slow, they’ll be careful in being militant about it. Because the way the gays really want is, they want that the youth should be taught that this is a perfectly normal way of life. They want to corrupt the entire youth; and don’t be mistaken about it!

They also want to teach Mankind that little boys can be taken off the street. They want to lower the age of consent and that way for the sake of a candy bar they can get little boys to be their victims.

Now this wickedness it seems to us very far from reality. But you have to know the North American ManLove-Boy Association says that openly. And Koch (Mayor of New York City) yemach shemo vezichro marched together with them in the Gay Rights parade. And that’s what they want. They want our children too! It’s no joke; it’s very serious. And so any little boy in the streets can be bribed by a candy bar. And once he gets into a bad habit, he’s ruined for life.

And therefore, not like up till now you were asleep; the Jewish people were asleep and the general public is asleep surely. Those who listen to the radio and read the New York Times don’t have their brains of their own; they just think what the media tell them – and the media is controlled by gays.

But the Jewish people, those that have some sense, have to maintain their constant drumming and battling. Constantly bothering them, pestering them with letters all the time. And don’t think it’s not a mitzvah; it’s a big mitzvah to do it all the time. Write letters to all the politicians. Write letters to everybody else. Wake up the rabbis who are asleep! They don’t know what’s doing here. They think it’s none of our business, they don’t realize that this evil is penetrating into frum houses too; it’s penetrating. And therefore we have to battle for our lives against gay rights.

TAPE # 591 (March 1986)

Said in 1986. Unfortunately, he was spot on...

[EliJelly]

The silence of our rabbunim are equally deafening.

"Our" rabbonim aren't really on social media. They probably have no clue and is better this way. They don't need to respond to every garbage news out there.

[Abebee]

"Our" rabbonim aren't really on social media. They probably have no clue

These questions should be addressed by US to our rabbonim!

They probably have no clue and is better this way.

Shove it under the rug, until its too big for the rug to cover???

[Alexsei]

Do they even know this happened?

"Our" rabbonim aren't really on social media. They probably have no clue and is better this way. They don't need to respond to every garbage news out there.

R' Avigdor Miller ZY"A wasn't on social media either, R' Moshe Feinstein ZY"A wasn't on social media either, The Satmer Rebbe ZY"A wasn't on social media either, I don't know if they read the daily newspapers (I wouldn't be surprised if they did to some extent), however they all knew about the latest challenges and addressed them, this is not a matter of responding to garbage new, this is a matter of responding to a widespread global epidemic that is slowly penetrating Klal Yisroel's best.

In the alter heim if there was a wedding outside of town without a proper mechitza or if it was celebrated closed to Shabbos the rabbunim didn't think that there's no need to respond to every garbage news out there, it is a serious pertze that should be condemned IMHO.

However who am I.

[EliJelly]

These questions should be addressed by US to our rabbonim! Shove it under the rug, until its too big for the rug to cover???

I don't really know how you want them to react, official ban for Lakewood and BP halls to host gay weddings??
Should YU Rabbonim speak out against it? Should they warn what a big Chilul Hashem it's to participate in such a wedding? Definitely! 

[Alexsei]

Should YU Rabbonim speak out against it? Should they warn what a big Chilul Hashem it's to participate in such a wedding? Definitely!

Sound like YU rabbonim don't really want to be behind bars, or be involved in a worldwide debacle, perhaps because it will be a "חילול השם"

[EliJelly]

R' Avigdor Miller ZY"A wasn't on social media either, R' Moshe Feinstein ZY"A wasn't on social media either, The Satmer Rebbe ZY"A wasn't on social media either, I don't know if they read the daily newspapers (I wouldn't be surprised if they did to some extent), however they all knew about the latest challenges and addressed them, this is not a matter of responding to garbage new, this is a matter of responding to a widespread global epidemic that is slowly penetrating Klal Yisroel's best.

In the alter heim if there was a wedding outside of town without a proper mechitza or if it was celebrated closed to Shabbos the rabbunim didn't think that there's no need to respond to every garbage news out there, it is a serious pertze that should be condemned IMHO.

However who am I.

Mixed weddings and the likes were all the daily struggles of life for which the Rabbonim dealt with. There is no point in taking this crazy and shocking incident and publicly make it our backyard battlefield.

[Alexsei]

Mixed weddings and the likes were all the daily struggles of life for which the Rabbonim dealt with. There is no point in taking this crazy and shocking incident and publicly make it our backyard battlefield.

So we should instead wait until the prevalence of gay weddings resembles that of mixed weddings in the previous century?

[EliJelly]

So we should instead wait until the prevalence of gay weddings resembles that of mixed weddings in the previous century?

Should we go nuclear on China now or wait until they drop a nuclear bomb on Taipei ?

[Alexsei]

Should we go nuclear on China now or wait until they drop a nuclear bomb on Taipei ?

אין המשל דומה לנמשל

[JACKBLUE]

I just read thru this thread and I’m literally shocked that some people are trying to justify such evil things. Great thing that DDF is anonymous, otherwise I’d be embarrassed to chat with such people.

[chevron]

I bet half the holy folks here talk in shul

[chevron]

I feel so overjoyed in knowing this forum is filled with poskim and dayanim.

I asked a friend who is a tremendous gaon and was a dayan on a well respected beis din for gitin and geiyorus.

He told me it's absolutely not aryos and most definitely not yehareg v'al yaavor.

He said it's a machlokes if it's m'deoraysa...

You know what's yehareg v'al yaavor? Shfichas damim.. all you keyboard poskim would encourage bi-sexual or gay women to commit suicide as it offends your frumkeit..

You are the problem, not them... They never bothered me or shoved their opinions and certainly never falsely implied they are better off dead.

[JMHO]

I feel so overjoyed in knowing this forum is filled with poskim and dayanim.

I asked a friend who is a tremendous gaon and was a dayan on a well respected beis din for gitin and geiyorus.

He told me it's absolutely not aryos and most definitely not yehareg v'al yaavor.

He said it's a machlokes if it's m'deoraysa...

I think we all pretty much agree on this.

You know what's yehareg v'al yaavor? Shfichas damim.. all you keyboard poskim would encourage bi-sexual or gay women to commit suicide as it offends your frumkeit..

You are the problem, not them... They never bothered me or shoved their opinions and certainly never falsely implied they are better off dead.