Author Topic: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment  (Read 5511 times)

Offline sddd

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OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« on: August 13, 2023, 07:08:07 PM »
If I understand correctly, OU no longer puts DE as a designation, but some OU-D products are really DE.
OREO's I believe are only DE (although this may need to be continuously verified?)

What other well known OU-D items are typically only DE?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2023, 07:22:09 PM by sddd »

Offline 12HRS

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Re: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2023, 08:26:49 PM »
Bring back the DE!!!

Offline Mordyk

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Re: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2023, 08:36:25 PM »
Is Snyders snacks ou-d or ou-de?
#TYH

Offline cholent

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Re: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2023, 09:00:08 PM »
Don't ask stupid questions and you won't get stupid answers

Offline JMHO

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Re: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2023, 10:40:27 PM »
There are products listed as OU-DE

Offline Baruch

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Offline herb

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Re: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2023, 11:30:06 PM »

What other well known OU-D items are typically only DE?
How about products that are listed as ou-d but are only powdered milk?
For example Pringles BBQ flavor
I've also heard that all chocolate products from the Mars company are only powdered milk
« Last Edit: August 13, 2023, 11:40:32 PM by herb »


Offline imayid2

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Re: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2023, 11:59:07 PM »
https://consumer.crckosher.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Dairy-Equipment-2021-1.pdf
Quote
There are times when something is 100% bona fide milchigs, but it is not labeled as dairy in the allergy panel. This is because only certain components of the milk trigger common dairy allergies. However, as far as kosher is concerned, the food is decidedly dairy.
I assume this is referring to milk proteins?

Are there any examples besides caseinate? Are these types of ingredients ever listed ambiguously as ďflavorsĒ without an allergy disclaimer?

In this article Rabbi Twerski from the OU indicates that besides creamers the allergy warnings are a reliable measure:




« Last Edit: August 14, 2023, 01:01:58 AM by imayid2 »

Offline imayid2

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Re: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2023, 12:52:28 AM »
https://consumer.crckosher.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Dairy-Equipment-2021-1.pdf
Quote
Most importantly, the volume produced on commercial equipment is so high that any flavor (bliyos) remaining in the walls would certainly become nullified in a ratio of 1/60 to the kosher food now being processed. (This is known as shefa, see YD 99.) This is in contrast to when one cooks at home, in which case there is generally not 60 times as much kosher food as there is tainted equipment.
I donít understand this.

Keilem are always assumed to have more than 1/60 of what they contain, why is commercial any different?
Shefa is when the amount of issur itself is negligible.

Offline imayid2

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Re: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2023, 02:24:45 AM »

Offline liosac

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Re: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2023, 03:20:05 AM »
I donít understand this.

Keilem are always assumed to have more than 1/60 of what they contain, why is commercial any different?
Shefa is when the amount of issur itself is negligible.
Perhaps he means to say that there is such a large volume of product being produced that even if bliyos donít come out of a kli uniformly there are only two possibilities; either the bliyos were concentrated in less than 60 times volume of product, in which case the tainted product is batel חד בתרי in the far larger amount of untainted product, or the bliyos may have uniformly gone into the entire run in which case it is consistently batel in the product run which contains many times 60.

(As far as the bitul there is at least אין כוונתו לבטל as well as the fact that the run is not specifically for Jews.)

(Additionally the original bliyos in the Keilim only have to be calculated כפי המדומע if we donít say חנ״ן if it is considered לח בלח שאר איסורים especially לגבי the issur of חלב עכו״ם where there are additional shittos that we donít say חנ״ן)

Offline imayid2

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Re: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2023, 08:09:18 AM »
Perhaps he means to say that there is such a large volume of product being produced that even if bliyos donít come out of a kli uniformly there are only two possibilities; either the bliyos were concentrated in less than 60 times volume of product, in which case the tainted product is batel חד בתרי in the far larger amount of untainted product, or the bliyos may have uniformly gone into the entire run in which case it is consistently batel in the product run which contains many times 60.
If you assume חנ״ן then the volume doesnít help. Everything becomes entirely treif as it comes.

Offline aygart

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Re: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2023, 08:49:02 AM »
I donít understand this.

Keilem are always assumed to have more than 1/60 of what they contain, why is commercial any different?
Shefa is when the amount of issur itself is negligible.

I once went through this around 25 years ago but did not write notes so I am somewhat fuzzy, but this is the basic idea that I recall.

1) There is definitely industrial equipment that qualifies as נחושתו דק ורוחבו גדול. I did the math.

2) If we don't say ChN"N for cholov akum then there is a possibility to say you include the entire run in tashmisho bishefa (depends on machlokes IIRC)

3) When you are not dealing with an individual chaticha there are opinions that we don't say ChN"N until the end of the process.

there was more to this.



Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

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Re: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2023, 09:06:21 AM »
1) There is definitely industrial equipment that qualifies as נחושתו דק ורוחבו גדול. I did the math.
Ok, this would very much depend on the type of equipment, so itís kind of useless as a rule because of its specific application.
2) If we don't say ChN"N for cholov akum then there is a possibility to say you include the entire run in tashmisho bishefa (depends on machlokes IIRC)
Is there a reason cholov akum in particular shouldnít be subject to chanan?
3) When you are not dealing with an individual chaticha there are opinions that we don't say ChN"N until the end of the process.
Sounds interesting, if you have a chance to pull sources on this it would be appreciated.

Offline liosac

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Re: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2023, 09:56:16 AM »
Is there a reason cholov akum in particular shouldnít be subject to chanan?


Offline imayid2

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Re: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2023, 10:00:35 AM »
So the reason always circles back to the פרי חדש (and Rav Moshe)Ö

Is it always לח בלח?

Offline liosac

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Re: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2023, 10:39:56 AM »
So the reason always circles back to the פרי חדש (and Rav Moshe)Ö

Is it always לח בלח?
Rav Moshe himself is willing to be somech on לח בלח שאר איסורים even without the pri chadash


Offline monoso

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Re: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2023, 10:42:54 AM »
regarding natural flavors containing dairy. I was told that even if there is dairy in the flavor, it's only acting as a binder, etc, and is not the flavor itself, and therefore would be batul.

Offline imayid2

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Re: OU-D Products that are Dairy Equipment
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2023, 10:44:29 AM »
Rav Moshe himself is willing to be somech on לח בלח שאר איסורים even without the pri chadash
True but חכמת אדם and pri megadim argue.
See discussion here
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=130814.msg2639991#msg2639991

Either way this all has very little to do with what he wrote it the article which is inaccurate. And is it really always לח בלח?