Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch (Read 456840 times)

Dan · « **Reply #820 on:** February 04, 2015, 09:38:29 AM »

Quote from: Baruch on February 04, 2015, 09:07:24 AM

Are you backing away from this statement?

No, because all would accept anyone as moshiach if he proved himself.

Achas Veachas · « **Reply #821 on:** February 04, 2015, 09:38:42 AM »

Quote from: DP7 on February 04, 2015, 09:25:02 AM

Again. If it's a fact it's not wrong. And if it's wrong it's not a fact.

^{[CITATION NEEDED]}

jj1000 · « **Reply #822 on:** February 04, 2015, 09:39:21 AM »

Quote from: DP7 on February 04, 2015, 09:30:37 AM

I don't have a cause. I was commenting on someone's use of the terms facts and opinions interchangeably regardless of my thoughts on this individual topic.

Seriously? You weren't commenting at all on this topic?

You made a comment that made it seem you were. Hence all the replies you received.

Facts can be taken in many different ways. And people will come out with different beliefs based on the same facts. That seems obvious to me.

Quote from: ChaimMoskowitz on February 04, 2015, 09:33:07 AM

If you have facts please provide verification.

I don't think he's saying he has facts for the purposes of this thread, he was commenting on a nuance of a quote he replied to.

DP7 · « **Reply #823 on:** February 04, 2015, 09:40:46 AM »

Quote from: jj1000 on February 04, 2015, 09:39:21 AM

Seriously? You weren't commenting at all on this topic?

You made a comment that made it seem you were.

I originally did make a comment, but then moved past it because as you said there's no point. The second was not related to my first. To be honest I wish all threads on the forums related to anything other than deals/credit cards/trips etc. didn't exist as I don't find them to be productive and regret opening them. Need to have more self control.

Dan · « **Reply #824 on:** February 04, 2015, 09:41:50 AM »

Let's keep this thread constructive or it'll go back into the depths.

Yehuda57 · « **Reply #825 on:** February 04, 2015, 09:42:37 AM »

Quote from: Drago on February 04, 2015, 08:27:32 AM

When you say 'extremes', are you referring to 2 extremes, or just the 1 we're familiar with?

To simplify the whole thing, it's like this:

There are 3 groups within the Lubavitch.

1) The Meshichistin. They make up about 1%
2) The Anti Meshichistin. They make up another 1%.
3) The other 98% are the "I Don't Give a Shistim."

/my contribution to deep ideological conversations/flame-wars.

Achas Veachas · « **Reply #826 on:** February 04, 2015, 09:46:27 AM »

Quote from: Yehuda57 on February 04, 2015, 09:42:37 AM

3) The other 98% are the "I Don't Give a Shistim."

Cute though in such a highly emotionally charged topic there aren't too many Lubavitchers who don't give. As mentioned previously there are no groups, it's a spectrum and not even a 2 dimensional one...

elit · « **Reply #827 on:** February 04, 2015, 09:50:11 AM »

Quote from: Dan on February 04, 2015, 09:41:50 AM

Let's keep this thread constructive or it'll go back into the depths.

Agree. I understand why this thread was locked in the past but it's a shame that a few people ruin it for the majority who want to have a civil and informative discussion. If everyone would just ignore them and not get baited into responding they probably would stop

elit · « **Reply #828 on:** February 04, 2015, 09:53:03 AM »

Thanks to all for answering my second question gut what about the first

Quote from: elit on February 04, 2015, 07:59:21 AM

Is the topic of moshiach like chazal,sources hashkafa actually a subject taught/studied in chabad yeshivas or all of you know a lot about it because you have just hard it so many times etc...

Achas Veachas · « **Reply #829 on:** February 04, 2015, 10:01:16 AM »

Quote from: elit on February 04, 2015, 09:53:03 AM

Thanks to all for answering my second question gut what about the first

In most Yeshivahs it isn't an official subject though it is often brought in as an "extra-curricular" project. That and the fact that when you are stuck having to debate an issue so many times you pick up a pretty good knowledge of the topic...

jj1000 · « **Reply #830 on:** February 04, 2015, 10:02:59 AM »

Quote from: elit on February 04, 2015, 09:53:03 AM

Thanks to all for answering my second question gut what about the first

It is embedded and quoted in much of the rebbeim's teachings which is studied daily.

Quote from: Achas Veachas on February 04, 2015, 10:01:16 AM

In most Yeshivahs it isn't an official subject though it is often brought in as an "extra-curricular" project. That and the fact that when you are stuck having to debate an issue so many times you pick up a pretty good knowledge of the topic...

You didn't go to inyanei geula umashiach classes after seder ever day? Shameful

On second thought there are classes specifically on moshiach offered in most chabad yeshivas.

lunatic · « **Reply #831 on:** February 04, 2015, 10:04:34 AM »

Quote from: Yehuda57 on February 04, 2015, 09:42:37 AM

To simplify the whole thing, it's like this:

There are 3 groups within the Lubavitch.

1) The Meshichistin. They make up about 1%
2) The Anti Meshichistin. They make up another 1%.
3) The other 98% are the "I Don't Give a Shistim."

/my contribution to deep ideological conversations/flame-wars.

Can you elaborate on #3? How can they be neutral to a topic that seems so central to chabad beliefs?

Achas Veachas · « **Reply #832 on:** February 04, 2015, 10:05:33 AM »

Quote from: jj1000 on February 04, 2015, 10:02:59 AM

You didn't go to inyanei geula umashiach classes after seder ever day? Shameful

That's extra curricular in my book

jj1000 · « **Reply #833 on:** February 04, 2015, 10:06:44 AM »

Quote from: lunatic on February 04, 2015, 10:04:34 AM

Can you elaborate on #3? How can they be neutral to a topic that seems so central to chabad beliefs?

No No NO NO!

It is just about as far from central as you can get. Which I tried to stress so many times in this thread. What you believe about the rebbe and mosiach or alive doesn't effect the chabad school of teaching and how to live even one iota IMHO.

Dan · « **Reply #834 on:** February 04, 2015, 10:07:49 AM »

Quote from: lunatic on February 04, 2015, 10:04:34 AM

Can you elaborate on #3? How can they be neutral to a topic that seems so central to chabad beliefs?

Bringing moshiach closer is a central chabad belief. More than that is for the fringes.

The vocal meshichistim believe by publicizing yechi that they will bring moshiach closer.

lunatic · « **Reply #835 on:** February 04, 2015, 10:18:43 AM »

Btw, I truly don't mean to offend anyone here. Just trying to understand

Yehuda57 · « **Reply #836 on:** February 04, 2015, 10:28:01 AM »

Quote from: lunatic on February 04, 2015, 10:04:34 AM

Can you elaborate on #3? How can they be neutral to a topic that seems so central to chabad beliefs?

'twas a joke. The basic idea being as JJ and Dan are saying, the "centrality" of these beliefs within Chabad ideology is mostly imposed by others.

ETA: "Centrality of these beliefs" refers to beliefs of the Rebbe being Moshiach and the need to vocalize and publicize that or not - not Moshiach itself.

Baruch · « **Reply #837 on:** February 04, 2015, 10:28:52 AM »

There is a diyuk in the Rambam, who says that if Moshiach is "neherag" he can't be Moshiach, it is very meduyek that if he's "meis" that he still can be Moshiach. It always suprises me that Chabadskers don't bring up that Rambam more often. Any open minded person would be very impressed with that Rambam.

Achas Veachas · « **Reply #838 on:** February 04, 2015, 10:31:46 AM »

Quote from: Baruch on February 04, 2015, 10:28:52 AM

There is a diyuk in the Rambam, who says that if Moshiach is "neherag" he can't be Moshiach, it is very meduyek that if he's "meis" that he still can be Moshiach. It always suprises me that Chabadskers don't bring up that Rambam more often. Any open minded person would be very impressed with that Rambam.

Which Chabadskers have you been talking to? It's probably THE source used when a Lubavitcher wants to explain why he believes the Rebbe is Moshiach. If we don't bring it up more often it's because we assume that anyone getting into the conversation about who Moshiach is would already know this Rambam.

aygart · « **Reply #839 on:** February 04, 2015, 10:35:13 AM »

Considering the centrality of Moshiach (itself whoever Moshiach is) in Chabad ideology it would be shocking if the talmidim didn't take an interest in "reading up on it".