Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[EliJelly]

Without it it makes no sense. You know the issur is here, how can you eat it?
It’s like this case:

Now we go in circles.

Look, you have no understanding of Rav Kallus's reasoning since you equate it with a treif lung found. The way I understand his argument is that we don't change the הנהגה of רוב which gave us the earlier psak for each individual, only when we "see" a ריעותא קמן which then we have to recalibrate that for the new תערובות which now contains a ודאי איסורא we saw with our eyes. As long we don't see a treif lung or any other ריעותא קמן, even if the statistic would force upon us such a metzuis, it's still not enough to force us to revoke the earlier psak of רוב.

[imayid2]

Now we go in circles.

Yep

Back to your own theory

[EliJelly]

Yep

Back to your own theory

There is similar talk there about רובא דליתא קמן being superior due to the fact that in that case also the ריעותא ליתא קמן, so the Rov is not being hindered in the way when we see the problem (i.e, treif lung) לפנינו.

[imayid2]

There is similar talk there about רובא דליתא קמן being superior due to the fact that in that case also the ריעותא ליתא קמן, so the Rov is not being hindered in the way when we see the problem (i.e, treif lung) לפנינו.

May be a svara not to require x60 since it’s מין במינו.

[EliJelly]

May be a svara not to require x60 since it’s מין במינו.

It's still lach b'lach. You mean as a tziruf.

[imayid2]

It's still lach b'lach. You mean as a tziruf.

I’m saying maybe chazal didn’t require 60 even though you know there is issur there because it was never identified

[EliJelly]

I’m saying maybe chazal didn’t require 60 even though you know there is issur there because it was never identified

I see that as a little more stretched but possibly.

[chessman1]

I’m saying maybe chazal didn’t require 60 even though you know there is issur there because it was never identified

OU kosher has an interesting high level article on this from 17 years ago that addresses the issue of why a large flock doesn't make all the milk assur.

https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/milk-from-a-possibly-treif-cow/

[imayid2]

OU kosher has an interesting high level article on this from 17 years ago that addresses the issue of why a large flock doesn't make all the milk assur.

https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/milk-from-a-possibly-treif-cow/

Nice!

Goes back to my original point (before things got out of hand ) that the fellow so concerned about DA perhaps shouldn't be drinking any milk at all.

Lmaase the article hangs its hat on siman 81 which isn't a slam dunk, and doesn't really explain why it should work that way. The comparison to drinking different milk over many years is way off.

[shulem92]

Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean. Tolin is completely inapplicable, the issur is mixed in every particle.

sorry was tired and mixing up your case of the lung with the case of milk. But I still don’t understand why you feel it would be different than 110:5 makolin, where we say kol deparish as long as we don’t know about the issur yet?

[shulem92]

Nice!

Goes back to my original point (before things got out of hand ) that the fellow so concerned about DA perhaps shouldn't be drinking any milk at all.

I always thought this was R shachters problem with dairy

[imayid2]

sorry was tired and mixing up your case of the lung with the case of milk. But I still don’t understand why you feel it would be different than 110:5 makolin, where we say kol deparish as long as we don’t know about the issur yet?

No one is eating vadai treif there. Every drop of milk has vadai treifos @ less than x60

[shulem92]

No one is eating vadai treif there. Every drop of milk has vadai treifos @ less than x60

what makes it vadai treif? Unless you found an actual treifa… (or you know that some cows are DA)

[imayid2]

what makes it vadai treif? Unless you found an actual treifa…

The laws of probability.

Perhaps you missed the beginning of the conversation, Rabbi Cohen crunches the numbers in his book.

(or you know that some cows are DA)

(Or you know than many cows are treifos)

[shulem92]

The laws of probability.

Perhaps you missed the beginning of the conversation, Rabbi Cohen crunches the numbers in his book.(Or you know than many cows are treifos)

you still don’t have a vadai treifa lefaneinu going into the mix, as opposed to DA where you know that those specific cows are already treifas

[imayid2]

you still don’t have a vadai treifa lefaneinu going into the mix, as opposed to DA where you know that those specific cows are already treifas

You have a vadai treifa which is vadai in this taarovus. Doesn’t get worse than that.

[shulem92]

You have a vadai treifa which is vadai in this taarovus. Doesn’t get worse than that.

did you X-ray them? How do you know there are treifos? Oh because you are assuming that when you shecht then they will be? But right now can you definitively prove to me that there is a vadai treifa? No! We don’t know when animals become treifos and chazaka tells us that they are kosher until proven otherwise

[imayid2]

did you X-ray them? How do you know there are treifos? Oh because you are assuming that when you shecht then they will be? But right now can you definitively prove to me that there is a vadai treifa? No! We don’t know when animals become treifos and chazaka tells us that they are kosher until proven otherwise

Chazaka cannot deny reality. We absolutely do know with certainty that there is vadai treifos there and it’s proven to be so. We have as big of a אנן סהדי that there ever was. It would be a neis like יציאת מצרים otherwise. This is just the facts.

If someone is mekadesh a woman Al tnai that there aren’t treifos there would we be חושש לקדושין? Absolutely not. There is simply no chance that there aren’t treifos there.

[moko]

@imayid2 you seem to be missing a key fact which has been pointed out... The vadai you speak of is only confirmed when the cows are schechted which is at the end of the milk life (that's why they kill them).
It's very likely that this develops over time .
Most herds lean towards younger cows which have a greater milk supply.
Therefore the treifos found when killing the cows don't reflect the reality of younger milking herds
Same goes for meat cows. They're schechted after several years of bad diet and no exercise.

[imayid2]

@imayid2 you seem to be missing a key fact which has been pointed out... The vadai you speak of is only confirmed when the cows are schechted which is at the end of the milk life (that's why they kill them).
It's very likely that this develops over time .
Most herds lean towards younger cows which have a greater milk supply.
Therefore the treifos found when killing the cows don't reflect the reality of younger milking herds
Same goes for meat cows. They're schechted after several years of bad diet and no exercise.

We have discussed this. It doesn't alleviate the situation.

That helps for a different issue, which is that רוב בהמות כשרות doesn't seem to be true these days. However, it's indisputable that there is a percentage of animals which are vadai treifos. In all age groups. Chazal knew this, we know this. It is why we check for treifos. Surely you agree that even younger cows need to be checked for treifos?

Therefore, when a large amount of cows are milked, you are guaranteed treifos at less than shuir bittul.