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The wiki is divided into groups for "fact" and "opinion." Please feel free to add whichever facts you know and opinions you have. Please try to avoid cluttering the wiki with unnecessary information such as outside links.

Please do not delete anything from this wiki.  If you disagree with an opinion, feel free to post your own. If you disagree with a fact--well, that's your opinion, and feel free to post it under opinions!

Facts
The flu vaccine causes more deaths per year than chicken pox.
The direct injection of RSV immunoglobulin, commonly known as the "RSV vaccine" would prevent 16x more deaths than the flu vaccine does, but is too expensive.
There is a vaccine for the plague, and that is why it is no longer an epidemic.
Ebola is caused by vaccines.
There is a vaccine for autism, but it causes mumps.


Opinions
Vaccines do not contain thimerosal, a known toxin.
If you snuck up on your neighbor's kid and cut open his skull, you would be arrested.  But when brain surgeons do it, and charge hundreds of thousands of dollars, it considered "medicine."
99% of vaccines do not cause autism (HT JJ1000).
Every pedi has seen healthy kids become sick physically & mentally hours after a vax (HT Baryochai)
Vaccines cause cancer, infertility, astma, adhd etc (HT Baryochai)

Poll

Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?

Yes (Shot)
116 (37.5%)
Yes (Nasal Spray)
5 (1.6%)
No
188 (60.8%)

Total Members Voted: 307

Author Topic: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread  (Read 330671 times)

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #580 on: March 05, 2014, 01:04:55 PM »
This is not a comment on vaccines per se, just on the underlying logic you appear to be employing. You're making it sound like the bar for a 'link' to be taken seriously is that you need to prove causation. Even correlation is enough to begin a discussion of weighing benefits and risks. Correlation implies a potential risk, which should still be factored into the discussion, albeit with less weight than causation would.
You would be correct if no studies were done to weigh the association between vaccines and autism. However, these studies have been done tens of times. They continuously reflect the "conventional medical wisdom" that vaccines do not lead to autism.

If there were a breakthrough study showing any sort of real concern that vaccines are actually linked to autism, there would be 10 copycat studies to test it within a year. In addition as I mentioned the study that has the greatest potential appears seriously flawed.

In conclusion, causation is smoke but that doesn't mean that my BBQ is the source of the fire. Especially when I'm looking at my BBQ and it isn't even on!
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 01:34:07 PM by YankyDoodle »

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #581 on: March 05, 2014, 01:18:41 PM »
I'm saying that pure correlation should not lead to any conclusions at all. You should only even wonder about conclusions if there is also some theory.

Well there is theory in this case. I do believe it is reasonable to consider whether vaccines has a link to autism. There is no benefit to being blind to the possibility. However, the research has been done already, there is no known link between vaccines and autism and no reason to suspect one based on the research.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #582 on: March 05, 2014, 01:28:56 PM »
You would be correct if no studies were done to weigh the causative relationship between vaccines and autism. However, these studies have been done tens of times. They continuously reflect the "conventional medical wisdom" that vaccines do not lead to autism.

If there were a breakthrough study showing any sort of real concern that vaccines are actually linked to autism, there would be 10 copycat studies to test it within a year. In addition as I mentioned the study that has the greatest potential appears seriously flawed.

In conclusion, causation is smoke but that doesn't mean that my BBQ is the source of the fire. Especially when I'm looking at my BBQ and it isn't even on!
What studies are you referring to? It would be basically impossible to prove that even a partial causative relationship does not exist. Short of actually truly understanding autism on a genetic/molecular/[fill in other potential fields that may help explain autism], the only way to prove that would be to demonstrate that no child that was vaccinated ever had autism, which is obviously not the case. You can suggest more logical causative effects, and explain any potential correlation between vaccines and autism via the other causes, or even show that the correlation is insignificant.

I'm saying that pure correlation should not lead to any conclusions at all. You should only even wonder about conclusions if there is also some theory.
As YD mentioned, theory is not the issue. How strongly you weigh a correlation when causation hasn't been demonstrated will hinge on the strength of the correlation (and associated theory) and the severity of the risk involved.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #583 on: March 05, 2014, 01:46:32 PM »
What studies are you referring to? It would be basically impossible to prove that even a partial causative relationship does not exist. Short of actually truly understanding autism on a genetic/molecular/[fill in other potential fields that may help explain autism], the only way to prove that would be to demonstrate that no child that was vaccinated ever had autism, which is obviously not the case. You can suggest more logical causative effects, and explain any potential correlation between vaccines and autism via the other causes, or even show that the correlation is insignificant.
I have edited my OP to reflect "association" instead of "causation".

There are many theories as to what causes autism. It is likely a genetic predisposition in certain ppl together with some environmental trigger. This could be tylenol use, cell phone radiation or any # of thousands of things that have become more commonplace than they were prior to the "outbreak" of autism. Can it be vaccines? Sure, it's a reasonable guess. However as I mentioned this has never been proven. In fact it has very rarely been shown to have any correlation, and none of these have ever been reproducible.

How strongly you weigh a correlation when causation hasn't been demonstrated will hinge on the strength of the correlation (and associated theory) and the severity of the risk involved.
The key here is what I bolded in your quote. While you are trying to say the severity of autism, I argue (together with 99% of the medical community) that the severity of the supposed association must be weighed against the severity of not using vaccines and allowing these life-threatening diseases to become commonplace again. Without any good data, do oyu really want to take that chance?

I will say again,
When someone responds with any decent answer regarding Fakefield or with an actual peer-reviewed article connecting modern vaccines with autism I will be glad to listen.

It is fine to discuss the possibility of correlation, but it is a very dangerous game to play to stop vaccines without very solid studies first.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #584 on: March 05, 2014, 04:54:04 PM »
I have edited my OP to reflect "association" instead of "causation".

There are many theories as to what causes autism. It is likely a genetic predisposition in certain ppl together with some environmental trigger. This could be tylenol use, cell phone radiation or any # of thousands of things that have become more commonplace than they were prior to the "outbreak" of autism. Can it be vaccines? Sure, it's a reasonable guess. However as I mentioned this has never been proven. In fact it has very rarely been shown to have any correlation, and none of these have ever been reproducible.
The key here is what I bolded in your quote. While you are trying to say the severity of autism, I argue (together with 99% of the medical community) that the severity of the supposed association must be weighed against the severity of not using vaccines and allowing these life-threatening diseases to become commonplace again. Without any good data, do oyu really want to take that chance?

I will say again,
It is fine to discuss the possibility of correlation, but it is a very dangerous game to play to stop vaccines without very solid studies first.
You misunderstand me. I'm not advocating that people not get vaccinated, especially not because of the possible connection to autism. I'm just pointing out that you mentioned several times that the 'research' linking vaccines and autism only shows correlation if even that, as if correlation is irrelevant and doesn't warrant further discussion.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #585 on: March 05, 2014, 05:20:33 PM »
You misunderstand me. I'm not advocating that people not get vaccinated, especially not because of the possible connection to autism. I'm just pointing out that you mentioned several times that the 'research' linking vaccines and autism only shows correlation if even that, as if correlation is irrelevant and doesn't warrant further discussion.
Yup, you made a good point. I did not mean to disregard the idea of correlation. I think I explained my position better in my post just above.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #586 on: March 05, 2014, 07:04:42 PM »
Yup, you made a good point. I did not mean to disregard the idea of correlation. I think I explained my position better in my post just above.
And I agree with it  ;D

Offline Barryg

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #587 on: March 05, 2014, 10:36:15 PM »
No I did not miss that. I looked through it then and again now.

1) You quoted 11 articles, that I must assume you did not actually read through. Either you found them linked on some website or you did a Google search or the like. Regardless, you present them so I will respond.

2) The last 4 either have no mention of vaccines or are not studies and are simply speculation.

3) 5 of the articles are referring specifically to thimerosal and Hg which have not been used in childhood vaccines in over a decade now. I cannot view any of these because I do not have access to them. They all seem to be trying to prove correlation and not causation. Regardless, they aren't used now so we'll move on.

4) There are 2 studies on vaccines within the last decade. One claims a correlation with Aluminum in the vaccines (http://omsj.org/reports/tomljenovic%202011.pdf). The study is decent but not compelling. It makes assumptions such as "we calculated the cumulative amount of Al administered from all vaccines that children receive", they argue that since in a specific disease (macrophagic myofasciitis) the Al from vaccine remains for months to years, therefore it is reasonable to assume that is the case for all vaccines. This is not a reasonable assumption to make without further evidence and calls the entire study into question. They also argue that the strength of the correlation is enough to prove causation. That is just not true, especially in light of their poor study design. Finally for the icing, at the very end it says that the study was sponsored by Neurodyn corporation. Neurodyn's co-founder is Christopher Shaw, the author of the article. From what I can gather, his company is working on alternative options to vaccines... Conflict of interest much?

The last article you quoted (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21623535) I also cannot access. All I can see is the abstract and it is not an experiment rather a study attempting to prove correlation. This is done through regression statistics accounting for a couple of factors (income, ethnicity). These types of studies are notorious for being able to be manipulated, however I will reserve judgement until a link can be provided that allows full access to the article.
AFAIK it is still used in Flu vaccines (funny since that's where this thread started...)
Once you mentioned the Mercury phase out, I was bothered by a Q - if Mercury is harmless, why did they take it out of the vaccines?
Q2 once they took it out what did they replace it with (like Coke vs Diet Coke). I found this ebook, http://www.whale.to/vaccine/Aluminum_in_Vaccines.pdf but I'm sure you'll point out that it wasn't written by an MD...

Offline henche

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #588 on: March 05, 2014, 10:43:06 PM »

Once you mentioned the Mercury phase out, I was bothered by a Q - if Mercury is harmless, why did they take it out of the vaccines?


Because it didn't cause autism, and that is the whole point of vaccines.

Offline Barryg

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #589 on: March 05, 2014, 10:46:30 PM »
Where's the :P

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #590 on: March 08, 2014, 10:23:54 PM »
Dr ilenberg really should retire.

Another family, all four kids have the flu thanks to him. ::)

Offline jj1000

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #591 on: March 21, 2014, 12:06:38 PM »
http://cheezburger.com/220421

Good tweets to read.
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Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #592 on: March 21, 2014, 12:51:49 PM »
I found this ebook, http://www.whale.to/vaccine/Aluminum_in_Vaccines.pdf but I'm sure you'll point out that it wasn't written by an MD...
I have been meaning to respond to this for a while, just wanted to read it more thoroughly and I've gotten busy with my (other) real life. The problem with books such as this is that they are no better then our discussion on here. They are written with a very clear agenda in mind without the ability for it to be critiqued or tested. He writes deliberately misleading and sometimes false information (you can google for responsa to his book, they exist in troves).

It is very easy to convince people who have no intrinsic knowledge of a subject either way you'd like. I know enough to recognize that when weighing the pros and cons of this discussion, I can rely on the ethics and selfishness of enough knowledgeable doctors and researchers out there that if there were any serious concerns they would researched and printed. I also know that these diseases are too horrible to imagine happening to anyone that I care about.

I have hesitated to post this until now, but I cannot withhold it any longer
. This is known to be caused without a doubt by pertussis. It was also almost entirely eradicated as a direct result of the vaccine. I do not know whether vaccines have any unknown terrible side effects. I do know that many have been researched ad nauseam and no serious link has ever connected vaccines with any consistently serious side effects (that are anywhere comparable to the diseases they cure). Therefore I choose life. For me it's an easy choice. For others with more concerns it should be an easy choice of the lesser of two evils.

Offline henche

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #593 on: March 21, 2014, 12:57:22 PM »
Ah, my favorite ddf thread is bumped again.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #594 on: March 21, 2014, 01:01:16 PM »
Ah, my favorite ddf thread is bumped again.

You're like the guy dating two girls at once...Trying to figure out which one will be the "winner". Put yourself out there and pick a team.

Offline Barryg

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #595 on: March 21, 2014, 01:07:45 PM »
I have been meaning to respond to this for a while, just wanted to read it more thoroughly and I've gotten busy with my (other) real life. The problem with books such as this is that they are no better then our discussion on here. They are written with a very clear agenda in mind without the ability for it to be critiqued or tested. He writes deliberately misleading and sometimes false information (you can google for responsa to his book, they exist in troves).

It is very easy to convince people who have no intrinsic knowledge of a subject either way you'd like. I know enough to recognize that when weighing the pros and cons of this discussion, I can rely on the ethics and selfishness of enough knowledgeable doctors and researchers out there that if there were any serious concerns they would researched and printed. I also know that these diseases are too horrible to imagine happening to anyone that I care about.

I have hesitated to post this until now, but I cannot withhold it any longer
. This is known to be caused without a doubt by pertussis. It was also almost entirely eradicated as a direct result of the vaccine. I do not know whether vaccines have any unknown terrible side effects. I do know that many have been researched ad nauseam and no serious link has ever connected vaccines with any consistently serious side effects (that are anywhere comparable to the diseases they cure). Therefore I choose life. For me it's an easy choice. For others with more concerns it should be an easy choice of the lesser of two evils.
So if my choice is either all or nothing, you make very good points (and even before this discussion, without hearing any of your points) I'd pick all.
However, there are many choices in between, for example: Get vaccinated including DTaP, but not necessarily on reg schedule, exclude vaccines for flu and chicken pox, never do the early unnecessary ones or early or multiple shots at once... This would still not spread whooping couch (or mumps).
I'm not saying that it isn't a two sided argument with valid points on both sides, in between all or nothing. From my minimal knowledge on the subject, however, I am saying that I'd pick all over nothing, if those were the only two choices. However, there's a middle ground, and therefore, each shot is it's own decision...

Offline Barryg

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #596 on: March 21, 2014, 01:08:19 PM »
Ah, my favorite ddf thread is bumped again.
lol, my least favorite... :-(

Offline jj1000

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #597 on: March 21, 2014, 01:21:24 PM »
You're like the guy dating two girls at once...Trying to figure out which one will be the "winner". Put yourself out there and pick a team.
Um, more like a lawyer, but ya....
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #598 on: March 21, 2014, 01:24:35 PM »
Thanks @yankdoodle, I was going to post pics from someone I know babies levaya.... It would show the results of irresponsible action, but I felt it would be in bad taste.

(Died from, newly introduced (-thanks to the nuts) whooping cough.

Offline YankyDoodle

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Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #599 on: March 21, 2014, 01:26:43 PM »
So if my choice is either all or nothing, you make very good points (and even before this discussion, without hearing any of your points) I'd pick all.
However, there are many choices in between, for example: Get vaccinated including DTaP, but not necessarily on reg schedule, exclude vaccines for flu and chicken pox, never do the early unnecessary ones or early or multiple shots at once... This would still not spread whooping couch (or mumps).
I'm not saying that it isn't a two sided argument with valid points on both sides, in between all or nothing. From my minimal knowledge on the subject, however, I am saying that I'd pick all over nothing, if those were the only two choices. However, there's a middle ground, and therefore, each shot is it's own decision...
We've rehashed this before, and I actually agree with you completely. I see no problem in making decisions about each vaccine on its own merit as well as schedule. I refused to let them give me daughter a HBV vaccine in the hospital (as they do for almost all patients, whether they know it or not) because I know that my wife and I are not promiscuous. I made sure she got it at some later point in time, when she was more likely to come in contact with people who may be infected with HBV. Gotta use your head, absolutely.

Thanks @yankdoodle, I was going to post pics from someone I know babies levaya.... It would show the results of irresponsible action, but I felt it would be in bad taste.
(Died from, newly introduced (-thanks to the nuts) whooping cough.
I've got no problem with you Barryg, but before Jaywhy or anyone other anti-vaccine people post again watch the video I posted just prior and then make a decision.