Author Topic: Abortion = Murder?  (Read 52769 times)

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #260 on: May 15, 2019, 06:28:06 PM »
Ah, so it's our land with our government with our rulers now?

You'll notice I didn't quote that part of your post. The fact that it is not our land just means that our ability to fulfill our obligation is limited. For most of the past 2000 years it was completely impossible, however today there are ways that we can.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #261 on: May 15, 2019, 06:30:13 PM »
You'll notice I didn't quote that part of your post. The fact that it is not our land just means that our ability to fulfill our obligation is limited. For most of the past 2000 years it was completely impossible, however today there are ways that we can.
If we support chiristans trying to establish religion around us, pretty soon, being frum will be illegal.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #262 on: May 15, 2019, 06:30:38 PM »
why advocate for the government making morality a question of law? It's not the government's job.
I hate to break it to you, but the government is responsible to enforce moral laws.
Killing your neighbor or stealing his possessions are very immoral things to do. They are ethically wrong.
We advocate for many other moral laws, where the government its shirking its duty, such as turning a blind eye to abortion.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #263 on: May 15, 2019, 06:30:50 PM »
You'll notice I didn't quote that part of your post. The fact that it is not our land just means that our ability to fulfill our obligation is limited. For most of the past 2000 years it was completely impossible, however today there are ways that we can.
Yes, we can advocate to have catholic ideals enshrined in law, that's worked out well for us in the past.
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Offline mmgfarb

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Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #264 on: May 15, 2019, 06:33:50 PM »
I hate to break it to you, but the government is responsible to enforce moral laws.
Killing your neighbor or stealing his possessions are very immoral things to do. They are ethically wrong.
We advocate for many other moral laws, where the government its shirking its duty, such as turning a blind eye to abortion.
You are confusing ethics and morals with the job of government to protect us from each other. I'm not going to have a debate here about democratic political theory but not all things are equal. Remember that it's the catholics who came up with this, not us. Especially when you bring in something like the death penalty in the case of Georgia, Idk how you don't see this entire thing as clearly a Christian religious agenda which should have no place in government even if it is "morally" better for people to be doing or avoiding something.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #265 on: May 15, 2019, 06:37:01 PM »
But why give our government the ability to do that to begin with? It's our job to make sure that the goyim do as few "immoral" things as possible?

So your argument is that since it is possible for the government to overstep its bounds and prohibit Milah or Shchitah, therefore we should not advocate for any moral thing whatsoever. We should keep silent when they push for abortions, gay rights, etc. One thing does not lead to the other.

And by the way, the Torah views certain things to be intrinsically bad or immoral.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #266 on: May 15, 2019, 06:39:54 PM »
So your argument is that since it is possible for the government to overstep its bounds and prohibit Milah or Shchitah, therefore we should not advocate for any moral thing whatsoever. We should keep silent when they push for abortions, gay rights, etc. One thing does not lead to the other.

And by the way, the Torah views certain things to be intrinsically bad or immoral.
If abortion is as immoral as you say, how come it's sometimes allowed in the case of a mental heath issue for the mother that's not life threatening?

Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #267 on: May 15, 2019, 06:42:44 PM »
You are confusing ethics and morals with the job of government to protect us from each other.
I am saying that there is an ethical and moral responsibility for the government to enforce the law and that murdering or stealing from your neighbor is ethically and morally wrong.

My Google search says that "moral" means, concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.
 Judaism firmly believes that there are absolute right/good and wrong/bad standards.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #268 on: May 15, 2019, 06:43:53 PM »
If abortion is as immoral as you say, how come it's sometimes allowed in the case of a mental heath issue for the mother that's not life threatening?

Because those poskim consider mental health to be considered סכנת אבר.

Also, something can be immoral in some circumstances, and a mitzvah in others.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #269 on: May 15, 2019, 06:51:58 PM »
When a fetus is tested and it is determined that it has a disability or deformity, many poskim [16] state that there is no allowance for abortion. Rabbi Waldenberg disagrees and rules that when the resulting child’s deformity will cause stress that the parents will not be able to handle, it is permitted to abort. Rabbi waldenberg says “ there is no greater pain than to have a child that will die and there is nothing you can do to fix it.” For most types of deformities, Rabbi Waldenberg permits abortion only until 3 months. If the child has Tay Sachs he allows abortions even up until 7 months.[17]
An issue can also arise when the fetus in question would be born a Mamzer, a child from an illegitimate sexual relationship. Because of the adulterous affair the woman is deserving of the death penalty. Since the fetus is a part of the mother, and not it’s own entity, it too is technically liable for the death penalty and one can therefore, according to Rav Yaakov Emden, abort it. [18]
A question arises if the mother will experience severe mental distress if the baby is born. Rabbi Waldenberg holds that abortion is not murder at all, and that mental distress can be equated with physical pain. Therefore, abortion would be allowed if one’s rabbi determines that the mental stress is the same as the physical would be. [19] Rabbi Unterman takes a similar approach to the issue. Rabbi Unterman does believe that abortion is considered akin to murder, and therefore cannot be allowed in cases of mental anguish. However, if the psychological distress that the mother would feel would cause suicidal tendencies, Rabbi Unterman would permit abortion. [20]

https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Abortion

Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #270 on: May 15, 2019, 06:57:26 PM »
When a fetus is tested and it is determined that it has a disability or deformity, many poskim [16] state that there is no allowance for abortion.
Thanks for a source for the majority opinion.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #271 on: May 15, 2019, 06:58:53 PM »
If people here cannot understand that even if something is considered "morally" or "ethically" wrong, we still may not want the government to prohibit said thing by law, then I'm out. You must all be socialists who got their moral compass from the catholics or something like that.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #272 on: May 15, 2019, 07:04:58 PM »
I'll make sure to come back to this thread when Michigan passes a law inspired by Sharia law with religious exceptions advocated for by Islamic organizations.

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #273 on: May 15, 2019, 07:06:29 PM »
I'll make sure to come back to this thread when Michigan passes a law inspired by Sharia law with religious exceptions advocated for by Islamic organizations.
It boggles my mind that this is something people here are just refusing to understand.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #274 on: May 15, 2019, 07:08:12 PM »
If people here cannot understand that even if something is considered "morally" or "ethically" wrong, we still may not want the government to prohibit said thing by law, then I'm out. You must all be socialists who got their moral compass from the catholics or something like that.
It depends what that something is. If that something is baby slaying, then we want the government to consider it highly immoral and prohibit it.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #275 on: May 15, 2019, 07:09:07 PM »
It depends what that something is. If that something is baby slaying, then we want the government to consider it highly immoral and prohibit it.
Ah, so socialist.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #276 on: May 15, 2019, 07:10:51 PM »
It boggles my mind that this is something people here are just refusing to understand.
I'm equally boggled in the opposite direction. How can an (I assume) frum Jew wish that the government not impose rules against slaying an unborn child.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #277 on: May 15, 2019, 07:12:19 PM »
I'm equally boggled in the opposite direction. How can an (I assume) frum Jew wish that the government not impose rules against slaying an unborn child.
Because I don't want the government coming into my life and telling me what I can and cannot do, besides for the fact that the Torah's view on abortion definitely does not line up with any of these proposed laws.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #278 on: May 15, 2019, 07:15:44 PM »
Ah, so socialist.
I hate to break it to you. Just because you are convinced of the veracity of some tenant of democracy does not mean the Torah accords with it.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #279 on: May 15, 2019, 07:16:19 PM »
Because I don't want the government coming into my life and telling me what I can and cannot do, besides for the fact that the Torah's view on abortion definitely does not line up with any of these proposed laws.
Because maybe people should be free to ask their religious leaders these questions and not worry that the law is in contrast with their ruling.

I'm all for reasonable restrictions on abortion that leave enough flexibility to allow that to happen in cases such that there are no need for religious exceptions (kind of like Roe which heavily restricts 3rd term abortions when the fetus could actually survive outside the uterus.)