Poll

Should @countvalentine and @imayid2 stop with there endless bickering

Please yes!
5 (55.6%)
Please no I love it
1 (11.1%)
I don't mind
3 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: October 17, 2022, 05:07:57 PM

Author Topic: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade  (Read 123294 times)

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1560 on: October 09, 2022, 11:16:31 AM »
So when it comes to murdering the unborn you are ok with murdering some of them. Be right back as I need to change your painting again.
No, I didnít say that. (It might be true to excruciating circumstances but itís irrelevant to our current conversation)
Iíd be ok if the government isnít involved in every decision.

You constantly conflate my view on what is morally wrong, and the discussion of how much the government should be involved.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1561 on: October 09, 2022, 11:23:28 AM »
You constantly conflate my view on what is morally wrong, and the discussion of how much the government should be involved.
You are putting your moral view onto KH. Saying the government should be involved is your moral view.

You are in a pickle, and I understand that.
You believe any abortion is murder.
Your religion has situations where abortion is permissible.
That means your religion... (going to invoke @jj1000 on myself at this point and stop).
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1562 on: October 09, 2022, 11:26:25 AM »
You are putting your moral view onto KH. Saying the government should be involved is your moral view.
No.
There is a point where you donít need any religion to tell you that it is murder.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1563 on: October 09, 2022, 11:28:33 AM »
No.
There is a point where you donít need any religion to tell you that it is murder.
Is aborting a 6-week embryo murder?
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1564 on: October 09, 2022, 11:35:24 AM »
Is aborting a 6-week embryo murder?
Why is that relevant to this conversation in which we are discussing the other extreme and Iím stating something that youíve been pretty clear you agree with?
I would be all for them ruling no abortions after xx weeks with overturning RvW.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1565 on: October 09, 2022, 11:59:19 AM »
Is aborting a 6-week embryo murder?
But because you asked, from Judaismís standpoint there are strong grounds to say it isnít ďmurderĒ though that term is fluid. (It would nevertheless be prohibited in most cases.)
That has nothing to do with governments role in this. I donít have a definitive opinion, nor do I feel an urge to formulate one, on exactly when before viability the line should be drawn and government should step in. Iím ok with a rationale based viewpoint of 6 weeks. And as it progresses Iím less and less ok with the other viewpoint.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1566 on: October 09, 2022, 12:09:39 PM »
Here is the whole problem. If someone says you should let the women decide (as KH did) you are labeled as pro-abortion. That is completely false.

If you follow your priest or LOR decision and they say the abortion is permissible does that make them pro-abortion?
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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1567 on: October 09, 2022, 12:18:32 PM »
Here is the whole problem. If someone says you should let the women decide (as KH did) you are labeled as pro-abortion. That is completely false.
No. Itís not completely false. If you donít think the government should be involved in something which has no logical grounds to not be considered murder, then  although not pro abortion per se, are pro standing by to murder. Feel free to create a new term to capture this nuance.
If you follow your priest or LOR decision and they say the abortion is permissible does that make them pro-abortion?
Blunt terms donít capture all the nuances this intricate question requires. I agree. It would be like calling the justification of killing an unwitting toddler about to to kill somebody ďpro murderĒ. Obviously itís more complex than that.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2022, 12:21:33 PM by imayid2 »

Offline CountValentine

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Offline imayid2

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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1570 on: October 11, 2022, 10:31:10 PM »
I would be wary of anything the NCJW is involved in. They are a total corruption of Jewish values.
The point is they are claiming it violates their religion and this isn't the first case like this. I don't expect your Jewish values to be the same as their Jewish values.
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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1571 on: October 11, 2022, 10:35:33 PM »
I don't expect your Jewish values to be the same as their Jewish values.
There is only one Judaism.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1572 on: October 11, 2022, 10:41:04 PM »

It seems they disagree of what that one is.

Is this correct?
ďJudaism has never defined life beginning at conception,Ē
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1573 on: October 11, 2022, 10:51:33 PM »
Is this correct?
ďJudaism has never defined life beginning at conception,Ē
Hmm. If life means the same as a born person than itís true. But it would be true in the third trimester too.
If they mean abortion is allowed itís false. For the most part itís prohibited.
If they mean that in the earliest part of pregnancy exemptions are easier to obtain, it hinges on halachik debate, with some very eminent Rabbis equating all stages.

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1574 on: October 11, 2022, 11:15:31 PM »
Hmm. If life means the same as a born person than itís true. But it would be true in the third trimester too.
If they mean abortion is allowed itís false. For the most part itís prohibited.
If they mean that in the earliest part of pregnancy exemptions are easier to obtain, it hinges on halachik debate, with some very eminent Rabbis equating all stages.
Did you quote the right post?
This is a straightforward yes or no question.
Let me show you how this works
"Christianity has never defined life beginning at conception,Ē
That would be false.
Now you try.
ďJudaism has never defined life beginning at conception,Ē
Would that be true or false?
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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1575 on: October 11, 2022, 11:30:52 PM »
Did you quote the right post?
This is a straightforward yes or no question.
Let me show you how this works
"Christianity has never defined life beginning at conception,Ē
That would be false.
Now you try.
ďJudaism has never defined life beginning at conception,Ē
Would that be true or false?
First define ďlifeĒ.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1576 on: October 11, 2022, 11:35:13 PM »


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Offline WAM

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1577 on: October 12, 2022, 11:51:35 PM »
First define ďlifeĒ.
Define woman without using the word "woman."

Offline imayid2

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1578 on: October 13, 2022, 12:17:23 AM »
Define woman without using the word "woman."
An adult human female.

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Re: Supreme Court Will Strike Down Roe v Wade
« Reply #1579 on: October 13, 2022, 01:05:08 AM »
An adult human female.
Lol.
That was in regard to CV's response.
Eta: Iow, you can define life and answer his question all in one post.