(False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery

[gozalim]

Does it make a difference?

yes. you're accusing someone of holding by this. If it's a chabad sefer I can pursue an explanation. if it's something the misnagdim made up, then....
if you want to understand the meaning of it, much less expect someone to stand by it, you need to name it

[imayid2]

[gozalim]

you know he was against, and avoided, the cherem?

[imayid2]

where is that from?

הנהגות ישרות - רב מנחם מנדל מפרמישלאן
I don’t see much of a purpose in the names, not here to ח״ו smear them, just to prove that these things were going on, and from the perspective of the מתנגדים it’s wrong.

[imayid2]

you know he was against, and avoided, the cherem?

This isn’t relevant to our current discussion

[gozalim]

let me understand: the accusation (which I deny) is that they were מבטל מתלמוד תורה. not to be מבטל זמן, but to be עוסק במצוה אחרת. I'll grant that you find that objectionable, but is that even an איסור?

[gozalim]

I don’t see much of a purpose in the names, not here to ח״ו smear them, just to prove that these things were going on, and from the perspective of the מתנגדים it’s wrong.

this is mighty rich from the guy who wants chapter and verse proofs of everything

and לגופו, I it's a smear in your mind only. his talmidim are still proud to print it. you may not agree with their interpretation, but they clearly don't think it means what you think it means

[gozalim]

This isn’t relevant to our current discussion

it very much is

[imayid2]

let me understand: the accusation (which I deny)

I’m not clear what this means. Is the sefer I quoted a misnagdisha forgery? Rav Chaim Volozhiner was dreaming?

I'll grant that you find that objectionable, but is that even an איסור?

Let’s say it’s not. We are establishing facts.

[gozalim]

I’m not clear what this means.

I deny that they were minimizing limud and not just minimizing bloat of scholarship

Is the sefer I quoted a misnagdisha forgery?

I suggested that only while you were avoiding naming the sefer. I retract that

Rav Chaim Volozhiner was dreaming?

I posit that the town he refers to had multiple chassidishe בקיאים בש"ס. rightly or wrongly that limud wasn't done in the center of the beis medrash. so he wasn't dreaming but his conclusion wasn't accurate.
[agav, more importantly he didn't pass judgement based on a casual observation. not having heard the other side, he didn't jump to conclusions לעשות מעשה]

[imayid2]

and לגופו, I it's a smear in your mind only. his talmidim are still proud to print it. you may not agree with their interpretation, but they clearly don't think it means what you think it means

Ok. That’s irrelevant in considering the perspective of the מתנגדים.

[gozalim]

Let’s say it’s not.

so which accusation on that page is a violation of halacha?

[imayid2]

so which accusation on that page is a violation of halacha?

Let’s say none are

[gozalim]

Ok. That’s irrelevant in considering the perspective of the מתנגדים.

'protecting his honor' by quoting him anonymously rings a bit hollow

[gozalim]

Let’s say none are

then what is the justification for רדיפות חרמים ומסירות ?

(or why is it surprising that I'm pushing back on that suggestion)?

[imayid2]

(or why is it surprising that I'm pushing back on that suggestion)?

That wasn’t in reference to this specific letter. There are multiple letters, just chose one randomly.

You have to accede that just because something isn’t objectionable to you, isn’t a reason to deny that it was objectionable to them.

[gozalim]

You have to accede that just because something isn’t objectionable to you, isn’t a reason to deny that it was objectionable to them.

objectionable but not forbidden is hardly grounds for those actions.
nor does 'heading off' those things you find objectionable constitute 'saving'.

[gozalim]

That wasn’t in reference to this specific letter. There are multiple letters, just chose one randomly.

I'm sitting with none of the source material in front of me. I'm responding to what you post.
I don't doubt that there's more dirt where that came from. but I'm responding to your 'if so?'

[aygart]

then what is the justification for רדיפות חרמים ומסירות ?

(or why is it surprising that I'm pushing back on that suggestion)?

Let's stick to actions taken by rabbonim themselves. There were a number of letters written that list specific items. You may not consider those items to have been worth a polemic but apparently they did. A difference in ideology is a very good explanation. You have been claiming that they were based on lies. You should be able to demonstrate this by showing which items were lies etc. You remain avoiding the straightforward question I asked above.

[gozalim]

Let's stick to actions taken by rabbonim themselves.

if everyone did onlywhat the נפש החיים did, we'd hardly be having this conversation.

There were a number of letters written that list specific items.

none of those are in front of me

A difference in ideology is a very good explanation.

I fully agree that there were differences in ideology, that each side had ideological complaints against the derech the other side followed. that is grounds for a sharply worded letter, nothing more.

the claim that some were on the way to apikirsus and were doing objectively evil things, and the pushback saved them from themselves is what I'm rejecting.
I'm claiming that the רבנים and the המון עם on both sides were תלמידי חכמים, עוסק בתורה, מקפיד על קלה כחמורה and were pursuing a valid path in avodas hashem. neither loved the others' path.