(False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery

[imayid2]

Whether or not he ever met the TT, the T"T certainly did not tell him what is being claimed

How do you know?

[imayid2]

How do you know?

Based on preconceived notions?

[ExGingi]

How do you know?

Did you listen to Rabbi Paltiel's shiur I linked to above? Listen to what he says regarding אמת and שקר.

[imayid2]

Did you listen to Rabbi Paltiel's shiur I linked to above? Listen to what he says regarding אמת and שקר.

This one?

On another note, I had a rather lengthy drive yesterday so I listened to Rabbi Paltiel's shiur on Basi Ligani 5711 (Muga). One class, short version. As always fascinating class. Very interesting tidbits in the introduction. And a point that might be relevant to the current thread is a discussion of אמת vs שקר. I highly recommend this class.

Listened for the first 8 minutes and skimmed the rest. I’m not understanding the relevance. Can you pinpoint which part you’re referring to?

[jye]

Whether or not he ever met the TT, the T"T certainly did not tell him what is being claimed

It’s undeniably true that at least a portion of the movement for example the Kaliskers, were in danger of going off the rails. The Baal Hatanya may have been vehemently opposed but it’s plausible that sans the Gra’s opposition, other such factions would have sprung up and dominated the movement. Who is to say that the צ״צ didn’t acknowledge that sentiment? It doesn’t mean he agreed with the cherem. Lahavdil, no one agreed with the destruction of European Jewry yet many will say that to a degree it gave a new start to large swaths of Jewry that were in serious trouble prior to the war.

[ExGingi]

This one?Listened for the first 8 minutes and skimmed the rest. I’m not understanding the relevance. Can you pinpoint which part you’re referring to?

Start at 29:32 for what led me to link this here, though I think the entire class is worth listening to.

[aygart]

Whether or not he ever met the TT, the T"T certainly did not tell him what is being claimed

Is this based on objective facts? They have not been presented and until they are this is not in any way similar to the versions of the tshuvos.

[aygart]

Once again, it's Intresting to see who needs to get past preconceived notions and who doesn't.

THey are all over the place.

[gozalim]

It’s undeniably true that at least a portion of the movement for example the Kaliskers, were in danger of going off the rails. The Baal Hatanya may have been vehemently opposed but it’s plausible that sans the Gra’s opposition, other such factions would have sprung up and dominated the movement. Who is to say that the צ״צ didn’t acknowledge that sentiment? It doesn’t mean he agreed with the cherem. Lahavdil, no one agreed with the destruction of European Jewry yet many will say that to a degree it gave a new start to large swaths of Jewry that were in serious trouble prior to the war.

silliness and even disrespect do not antinomianism make.
there is no indication of another such offshoot, and every indication of them being more strongly reprimanded from within than without.
the antagonism towards the whole only made the individual branch *less* rece[tive to what "those misnagdim" have to say.
there is no way that the vilna antagonism could be credited with ''saving' kalisk, today much less then

[imayid2]

silliness and even disrespect do not antinomianism make.
there is no indication of another such offshoot, and every indication of them being more strongly reprimanded from within than without.
the antagonism towards the whole only made the individual branch *less* rece[tive to what "those misnagdim" have to say.
there is no way that the vilna antagonism could be credited with ''saving' kalisk, today much less then

What about minimizing the amount of people that think this is ok? Is that a possibility?

[gozalim]

who is that about?

[imayid2]

there is no indication of another such offshoot

Pshischia was in some ways similar FWIU

[imayid2]

who is that about?

I don’t think it’s important because it probably never happened so to me it’s מוציא שם רע . With that in mind here it is

[imayid2]

and every indication of them being more strongly reprimanded from within than without.

Do you have a source for this?

[gozalim]

Pshischia was in some ways similar FWIU

in terms of intentional mystery maybe,
you not understanding their shtick does not antinomianism make either.
but I don't know enough about their history to address specific details of specific incidents. I believe we have some Gerrer (and possibly other) chassidim here who may be more familiar.

but in any case your claim falls apart at the timeline?
didn't the 'mysteriousnes' in Pshischa start years after the intense antagonism from Vilna? who could they take that credit?

(besides, isn't pshicscha is usually considered the 'good' chasidim, the ones who you'll admit new how to learn?)

[gozalim]

Do you have a source for this?

was there ever one direct approach from the misnagdim to the kaliskers specifically?
[or does the rules of בפני בעל דין not apply to them just like it didn't apply to any other chassidim]

[aygart]

Of the specific items mentioned in the Vilna polemic, which were true and still apply, which  were true and are no longer found, and which were untrue altogether?

[aygart]

was there ever one direct approach from the misnagdim to the kaliskers specifically?
[or does the rules of בפני בעל דין not apply to them just like it didn't apply to any other chassidim]

Does בפני בעל דין apply to חרמים at all?

[imayid2]

was there ever one direct approach from the misnagdim to the kaliskers specifically?
[or does the rules of בפני בעל דין not apply to them just like it didn't apply to any other chassidim]

According to the AR there was a direct ויכוח in Shkolov with the Kaliskers (IIRC), that played a huge role in the first מערכה.

[ExGingi]

It’s undeniably true that at least a portion of the movement for example the Kaliskers, were in danger of going off the rails. The Baal Hatanya may have been vehemently opposed but it’s plausible that sans the Gra’s opposition, other such factions would have sprung up and dominated the movement. Who is to say that the צ״צ didn’t acknowledge that sentiment? It doesn’t mean he agreed with the cherem. Lahavdil, no one agreed with the destruction of European Jewry yet many will say that to a degree it gave a new start to large swaths of Jewry that were in serious trouble prior to the war.

It's amazing how much is built and hung upon this supposed "plausibility".

Let's put some facts into context, and then tell me if it is "plausible":

There were 4 Chassidim who were murdered in Swenzian as a result of the רדיפות and חרמות. Do you really think it is "plausible" that the Tzemach Tzedek would have said ANYTHING positive about the רדיפות and חרמות?