United Crew Shames Woman Who Won’t Move Seats Due To Demand From Men

[rbs-g1.5]

Okay, I'm willing to have that conversation, but first I want to finish this earlier conversation.

If someone were to tell you that they don't want to sit near you because you're Jewish so you should switch seats, how would you respond?  Would you smile, and say either Yes or No?  Why or why not?

That conversation is a ridiculous game that I have no time for.( My initial response was typed up in the middle of the night while trying to get one of my newborn twins to fall asleep B"H)
Whether asking from coreligionists or others this request when made politely is self understood for those who understand the aforementioned facts and unexplainable to those who don't. Its like trying  to prove that an elephant is not a person .
Either way, this conversation that you started was not about a person that received this request, misunderstood and  was mortified ,rather it was about the perception of the issue by people such as yourself .  You wrote ". It's problematic when men feel the need to constrain women's location in public transportation.  That is obviously bothering lots of people, and they support Neria's perspective, that an individual man doesn't have the right to tell a woman to move away because he doesn't want her there (for whatever reason)."

If you are tolerant enough to try understanding  other peoples ways of dealing with tznius issues you will understand .If you are not than its just a silly game.

[yochai]

Mods, time to move this thread to JS or GD?

[Sam 77]

Mods, time to move this thread to JS or GD?

For the love of g-d please not JS
#netfree

[biobook]

In both of those cases I’m nearly 100% certain they don’t mean that they would request the woman switch seats with a random person to accommodate you but would request a seat change *for themselves or their relatives* with the person they’re requesting it of. You are presenting the case incorrectly, and perhaps that’s where some of your perception is coming from.

Maybe you're right. I've been interpreting the request (here and elsewhere) as coming from a male traveling alone, or perhaps with just one relative on one side, and seeking a random male to sit next to him.

[biobook]

( My initial response was typed up in the middle of the night while trying to get one of my newborn twins to fall asleep B"H)

Mazel Tov!  Go back to the babies! (Or back to sleep)

this conversation that you started was not about a person that received this request, misunderstood and  was mortified ,rather it was about the perception of the issue by people…

Good, we totally agree, that's exactly what I've been talking about - how the issue is perceived by others.  I responded to two posts which seemed to ask that very question:

I have seen comments from people sticking up for Neria saying that even if it didn't happen, it certainly could have happened.  I don't doubt that, but what is their point?

So then you smile and say "I'm sorry, I chose this seat and I'm going to stay here" and move on. I'm really not getting the part where it becomes "how dare he have the nerve to think of asking me".

I've been trying to explain how this issue is perceived by the X/tweeters and some women who are asked to switch seats.
 
It’s been stated repeatedly that some men have a religious view that they must keep far from unrelated women, and that part is clear. The question is how does that man act when he enters a public space where this view conflicts with those of others.  The first step in resolving a conflict is for both parties to understand each others’ perspective, and that’s where I tried to enter the conversation, to try to see the other side.

S209 argues that we don’t have to try to understand the others’ perspective, because we are certain that we know what it is: Chiloni simply hate Chareidi.  I don’t find that a completely satisfying explanation.  If the disagreement were simply due to pre-existing hatred, I would expect to hear from chareidi passengers who begin to approach their seat near a chiloni and they are asked to switch and sit elsewhere.  Maybe this happens, but if so it hasn't been mentioned here.

Imayid2 argues that if the woman perceives the situation differently from the man, then he should explain himself again until she sees things from his viewpoint.  This doesn’t answer the question, which was to try to understand her perspective in the first place.

I suggested that a possible explanation for why women (in this theoretical situation) may not just smile back is because they see the very request as impolite.  Is this a better explanation?  I don't know.  Ask them.

DavidR, admirably, asks how he can achieve this goal of sitting only near men:

I would appreciate it if anyone could clarify. If I am uncomfortable sitting next to someone for religious reasons, what should I do?

And EliJelly and Dan responded with some methods that would not be perceived as offensive:

Of course there are polite ways to go about it and there are dumb and uncivil ways too. Personally I think the optimal way is not to ask her to change seats, rather to change your own seat with a solo frum woman flying on the flight who is much more likely to be sympathetic to such a request.

If the issue is sitting in between 2 people, then pay for the aisle or window.

I hate to say it, but if you have a bona fide religious conviction against the possibility of sitting next to someone, why is it different then when we pay double for kosher food or kosher wine or tuition?

Buy an extra seat and you'll avoid all drama. Plus you'll be a lot more comfortable.

I understand not everyone can afford that, but travel is a luxury in the first place.

Although I can imagine other ways.

[biobook]

Mods, time to move this thread to JS or GD?

It's okay, I'm outta here.  I'll read this differently from now on.
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=124240.msg2740596#msg2740596

[chevron]

I don't understand how this particular situation had anything to do with the gender? What if a group of girls wants to sit together ?

My understanding of the story at least was that a couple of friends wanted to sit together and she just happened to be in the middle

Plenty of women in all walks of life, do move and switch due to what they perceived as a creepy guy.. which is btw discrimination based on gender if you ask me

To quote my kindergarten teacher " the wheels on the bus go round round round"

[EliJelly]

Although I can imagine other ways.

Feel free to share them here.

[Alexsei]

Back to the thread title, did united Crew shame the woman? If they did, was it because she refused to change seats due to demand from Man ?

[S209]

S209 argues that we don’t have to try to understand the others’ perspective, because we are certain that we know what it is: Chiloni simply hate Chareidi.  I don’t find that a completely satisfying explanation.

I didn’t argue that, nor do I believe it. I do believe public perception is heavily influenced by the media coverage of Chareidim. The onslaught of negative media coverage *may be due to their hatred of Chareidi culture* or perhaps there are other factors involved in their yellow journalism.

If the disagreement were simply due to pre-existing hatred, I would expect to hear from chareidi passengers who begin to approach their seat near a chiloni and they are asked to switch and sit elsewhere.  Maybe this happens, but if so it hasn't been mentioned here.

I thought someone mentioned being harassed by secular Israelis when sitting next to them but can’t find it. There have definitely been many videos of Chareidim getting yelled at in Israel just for existing. See YWN for more.

I just want to reiterate that I haven’t seen anyone say they requested the woman change places unilaterally to accommodate them, rather they’d requested a seat change for themselves or others to accommodate themselves. If this scenario doesn’t perturb you then perhaps we’re simply talking past each other as I believe I am correct and in fact agree with you that requesting someone switch their seat with someone random just to accommodate you would be highly offensive. Nothing to do with being a woman or a man.

[biobook]

Feel free to share them here.

1. Develop an app, SameSexSeats perhaps.  Pious People can post their desired route and range of preferred days and times to fly.  Other PPs can search for the route they want to fly to find potential seatmates. Decide on best flight, buy tickets at the same time, reserving adjacent seats. 

Or if a Pious Person is less flexible, they can buy a ticket and post the route/day/time and others can search for someone flying their desired route and reserve an adjacent seat.

Would allow PPs to find each other in advance, so takes Chiloni travelers out of the equation, and it would make for a smoother boarding experience. And it would remove what I imagine might be a source of stress, not knowing until the last minute whether there will be a woman sitting in the adjacent seat.

2. Organize chartered flights to/from TLV on some regular basis – weekly, monthly, before yuntif? Like @Chaikel 's (?) chartered flight to Uman.  You can institute whatever seating policy and dress code meets your needs, ensure male-only FAs and pilots.  Have adequate space and time for davening. Disable the videos or broadcast shiurim instead of movies. Pass around netilas yadaim cups instead of hot towels.  Serve heimishe food, Rishus cold seltzer, Paskesz nosh.  Etc.  Create the environment you really want.

I have no idea whether anything like this exists, or if there's enough demand for either one worth pursuing.

[Alexsei]

1. Develop an app, SameSexSeats perhaps.  Pious People can post their desired route and range of preferred days and times to fly.  Other PPs can search for the route they want to fly to find potential seatmates. Decide on best flight, buy tickets at the same time, reserving adjacent seats. 

Or if a Pious Person is less flexible, they can buy a ticket and post the route/day/time and others can search for someone flying their desired route and reserve an adjacent seat.

Would allow PPs to find each other in advance, so takes Chiloni travelers out of the equation, and it would make for a smoother boarding experience. And it would remove what I imagine might be a source of stress, not knowing until the last minute whether there will be a woman sitting in the adjacent seat.

2. Organize chartered flights to/from TLV on some regular basis – weekly, monthly, before yuntif? Like @Chaikel 's (?) chartered flight to Uman.  You can institute whatever seating policy and dress code meets your needs, ensure male-only FAs and pilots.  Have adequate space and time for davening. Disable the videos or broadcast shiurim instead of movies. Pass around netilas yadaim cups instead of hot towels.  Serve heimishe food, Rishus cold seltzer, Paskesz nosh.  Etc.  Create the environment you really want.

I have no idea whether anything like this exists, or if there's enough demand for either one worth pursuing.

Or ...
https://www.bhol.co.il/news/731560

[EliJelly]

2. Organize chartered flights to/from TLV on some regular basis – weekly, monthly, before yuntif? Like @Chaikel 's (?) chartered flight to Uman.  You can institute whatever seating policy and dress code meets your needs, ensure male-only FAs and pilots.  Have adequate space and time for davening. Disable the videos or broadcast shiurim instead of movies. Pass around netilas yadaim cups instead of hot towels.  Serve heimishe food, Rishus cold seltzer, Paskesz nosh.  Etc.  Create the environment you really want.

I have no idea whether anything like this exists, or if there's enough demand for either one worth pursuing.

Sign me up as a PP!

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=133022.msg2706946#msg2706946

[Yo ssi]

1. Develop an app, SameSexSeats perhaps.  Pious People can post their desired route and range of preferred days and times to fly.  Other PPs can search for the route they want to fly to find potential seatmates. Decide on best flight, buy tickets at the same time, reserving adjacent seats. 

Or if a Pious Person is less flexible, they can buy a ticket and post the route/day/time and others can search for someone flying their desired route and reserve an adjacent seat.

Would allow PPs to find each other in advance, so takes Chiloni travelers out of the equation, and it would make for a smoother boarding experience. And it would remove what I imagine might be a source of stress, not knowing until the last minute whether there will be a woman sitting in the adjacent seat.

Interesting idea. It would require to allow seat changing which lots of basic economy flights don't allow and lots of flights are full.

[chevron]

1. Develop an app, SameSexSeats perhaps.  Pious People can post their desired route and range of preferred days and times to fly.  Other PPs can search for the route they want to fly to find potential seatmates. Decide on best flight, buy tickets at the same time, reserving adjacent seats. 

Or if a Pious Person is less flexible, they can buy a ticket and post the route/day/time and others can search for someone flying their desired route and reserve an adjacent seat.

Would allow PPs to find each other in advance, so takes Chiloni travelers out of the equation, and it would make for a smoother boarding experience. And it would remove what I imagine might be a source of stress, not knowing until the last minute whether there will be a woman sitting in the adjacent seat.

2. Organize chartered flights to/from TLV on some regular basis – weekly, monthly, before yuntif? Like @Chaikel 's (?) chartered flight to Uman.  You can institute whatever seating policy and dress code meets your needs, ensure male-only FAs and pilots.  Have adequate space and time for davening. Disable the videos or broadcast shiurim instead of movies. Pass around netilas yadaim cups instead of hot towels.  Serve heimishe food, Rishus cold seltzer, Paskesz nosh.  Etc.  Create the environment you really want.

I have no idea whether anything like this exists, or if there's enough demand for either one worth pursuing.

What if I want to sit next to women ? Ideally 22-44 years of age

[Moshe Green]

1. Develop an app, SameSexSeats perhaps.  Pious People can post their desired route and range of preferred days and times to fly.  Other PPs can search for the route they want to fly to find potential seatmates. Decide on best flight, buy tickets at the same time, reserving adjacent seats. 

Those that won't sit next to someone of a different gender probably won't use the app as well

good idea though.

[Moshe Green]

What if I want to sit next to women ? Ideally 22-44 years of age

עיין השידוך אפ

[rbs-g1.5]

For the love of g-d please not JS
#netfree

What if I want to sit next to women ? Ideally 22-44 years of age

if this direction persists it probably wont be just JS

[biobook]

Those that won't sit next to someone of a different gender probably won't use the app as well

Then add a fruber-like component, where people can call in to someone who does use the app and arranges it for them.

What if I want to sit next to women ? Ideally 22-44 years of age

Then you're like most people.  Women are on average smaller than men, so an empty seat near a woman appears to be roomier and have more leg and shoulder space than an empty seat near a man.  But some men might have other reasons, and there would need to be a way to screen who can access it.

Interesting idea. It would require to allow seat changing which lots of basic economy flights don't allow and lots of flights are full.

No flight is full before the first seat is sold - They would just need to reserve early, when there's more choice of seats.  If seat changes aren't allowed, then they would need to find the seatmate before making the purchase.  Or buy a non-basic ticket.

The question is how much of a priority is this, and for how many people. 

[yochai]

Those that won't sit next to someone of a different gender probably won't use the app as well

good idea though.

Wait till the secular Israelis find out about the app. Then you’ll have women intentionally requesting the men’s section.