United Crew Shames Woman Who Won’t Move Seats Due To Demand From Men

[S209]

I don't have first-hand experience, I really don't know.  The TV segment seemed to be showing women trying to get on a city bus who were told it's full of men going to yeshiva, they need to wait for the next bus.

But in that case, this

1. It's problematic when men feel the need to constrain women's location in public transportation.  That is obviously bothering lots of people, and they support Neria's perspective, that an individual man doesn't have the right to tell a woman to move away because he doesn't want her there (for whatever reason).

Is yellow journalism. It isn’t a male assertion of power over women if it works equally both ways (it does). Try writing what you wrote without insinuating it’s men telling women what to do, and you’ll see that your “problem” falls apart.

[S209]

Any expectation that United will release any more statements on this after looking in to it?

Unlikely, they probably don’t care.

[biobook]

But in that case, thisIs yellow journalism. It isn’t a male assertion of power over women if it works equally both ways (it does). Try writing what you wrote without insinuating it’s men telling women what to do, and you’ll see that your “problem” falls apart.

I'm not a journalist here.  I'm just summarizing what I've heard or read, and that was all about women being excluded from transportation.

What I've heard today on DDF is men who claim that they don't want women sitting next to them.  There haven't been reports from women who say they ask men to move to a different seat. 

[S209]

I'm not a journalist here.  I'm just summarizing what I've heard or read, and that was all about women being excluded from transportation.

What I've heard today on DDF is men who claim that they don't want women sitting next to them.  There haven't been reports from women who say they ask men to move to a different seat.

In literally the case we are discussing, the Neria Incident, a woman ultimately requested to switch seats because she felt uncomfortable between the two bochurim (and got yelled at by Neria for that).

The fact that “all you heard and read” about was a male bus excluding females just shows that yellow journalism is at play here and you are incorrectly labeling the situation in an inflammatory fashion (no doubt free of malice, but incorrect nonetheless). The problem you described simply doesn’t exist. It’s driven by unbridled hate for Chareidim, not more or less.

Do you honestly believe the separate beaches they show, conveniently only of men, don’t have a female counterpart just down the block? Do you believe the women in this community don’t commute as often as the men? Do you think Chareidi women are less likely to request a seat change than men?

[biobook]

In literally the case we are discussing, the Neria Incident, a woman ultimately requested to switch seats because she felt uncomfortable between the two bochurim (and got yelled at by Neria for that).

The woman didn't ask the bochurim to move because she doesn't want to sit near them.

The fact that “all you heard and read” about was a male bus excluding females just shows that yellow journalism is at play here and you are incorrectly labeling the situation in an inflammatory fashion (no doubt free of malice, but incorrect nonetheless). The problem you described simply doesn’t exist. It’s driven by unbridled hate for Chareidim, not more or less.

I was suggesting a possible interpretation of why readers of NK's posts were supportive of her, because they perceive that men are telling women where they can sit in various modes of transportation in Israel.  If you know that this doesn't happen, then address the specific claims made in the press, rather than complaining about my yellow inflammatory labels.

Do you honestly believe the separate beaches they show, conveniently only of men, don’t have a female counterpart just down the block? Do you believe the women in this community don’t commute as often as the men? Do you think Chareidi women are less likely to request a seat change than men?

I haven't thought about those one way or another.  Do you have any answers?  Do Chareidi women on planes ask the men sitting near them to please find another seat because they don't want to sit near a man?

[S209]

The woman didn't ask the bochurim to move because she doesn't want to sit near them.

And Nigel didn’t ask her to move and find another seat”, he requested that he/his son switch seats with her. Where did you see a story of a man asking a woman to just find another seat because he didn’t want to sit near her?

I was suggesting a possible interpretation of why readers of NK's posts were supportive of her, because they perceive that men are telling women where they can sit in various modes of transportation in Israel.  If you know that this doesn't happen, then address the specific claims made in the press, rather than complaining about my yellow inflammatory labels.

You’re right that people perceive that, but the perception is wrong and influenced by the self-same press. I don’t think you articulated it as a perception problem but as an actual problem. I’m not saying they’re your labels, they’re the labels being disseminated in the anti-Chareidi press for obvious reasons.

I did address the claims by showing you that the segregation goes both ways even though you won’t read about them because the other angle doesn’t work for the story being sold. Each “offense” ascribed to men is performed in equal measure by women in the community.

I haven't thought about those one way or another.  Do you have any answers?  Do Chareidi women on planes ask the men sitting near them to please find another seat because they don't want to sit near a man?

The men don’t ask women to “please find another seat”, they request to switch their own seat or that of their relative. Where have you seen otherwise?

Yes, of course women request seat changes just like men. See above. There are just as many female only beaches as there are male only. And there are likely a similar amount of buses with seating for women as there are for men. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

[mevinyavin]

Labels change.  @mevinyavin will wake up soon and apprise us of the current usage.

LOL. I appreciate your confidence in me but the problem with these terms, as I think @ExGingi is trying to say, is that they are almost always used subjectively differently.
I'll give you one example. Here you have a person who dresses most of the time in a white shirt, black pants, has a long beard and tzitzis hanging out. But he worked for 22 years (while dressed like that) in Manhattan for a large Goyishe record company. When he travels, he wears a baseball cap. When he was much younger (both pre- and post-beard), he often wore T-Shirts and went to rock concerts (his brother A"H was a honest-to-goodness rock star). He taught me that what the Rav (zatzal) says is the final word in all things and he is never mevater on his seder. What you would call him depends on which community you belong to: The yeshiva crowd call him a bal habos, the mekurev call him Rabbi (and he teaches them Torah when he can), the yeshivish charedim call him Charedi but not yeshivish, and Israeli security call him daati. @yfr bachur labeled me "a ben Torah but not yeshivish," and that's what I would call him even though I'm in a Bes Midrash for two+ sedarim and he is not. (Myself I'm not so sure.)
It isn't any better in Israel. I labeled my baal dirah "Mizrachi" based on looks, because I know he loves Eretz Yisrael and has given off an indication or two that he keeps mitzvos to some extent. I don't know him well enough to know if I'm right. But if he is, what do I call the manager of my local grocery? They both wear kippot, but I've seen the manager in tefillin. Maybe my Baal Dirah would call him Charedi?

I don't know if I can do any better.

[mevinyavin]

Some IL background for you folks and some of my two cents.

From the perspective of true democracy, the women's rights people are correct. This has to be said. Just because halacha may (may!) make this untenable doesn't mean that it is lawful to force women to travel on the back. As such, when it comes to public transportation, any forced seating arrangement is bound to make anyone who doesn't believe in the Torah as Hashem's final Word forever absolutely outraged. And this is what many Chiloni ladies feel.

The halacha aspect is too nuanced to do justice, but al regel achas, it may be that any power Charedim have to force the issue should be used, but even if this was universally accepted among the poskim, it is not applicable in every situation - that would depend on how bad the transgression being prevented is. Should we use our political power to prevent public transportation on Shabbos? Should be have separate walking areas in the public domain (at least where we live)?

The Chilonim are, by and large, unable to differentiate between a worldly Charedi who asks (nicely) for something out of halachic preference versus a Charedi who believes that the Torah should be forced on everyone else to the largest extent possible. And after a while dealing with the latter, they may lash out at the former in advance. I am not apologizing for them, but this IS a world in which nuance is being thrown out the window and everyone moves to the extremes. So it goes.

Now a bit on recent IL events. For years, Yeshivas Mir paid Egged for use of public transportation buses. These buses had real line numbers and schedules. Then the government (maybe just Y-m, I don't know) decided it wasn't legal to use such public buses in a way that who was allowed to get on was limited, and the Mir had to switch to private charter (at much greater expense). There are, however, still places that run buses to yeshivos. When a lady tries to get on, the people on the bus say the bus is private. I don't know if this is true. Again, if the bus is technically public and this is a democracy (it isn't really but it is somewhat democratic), the lady is right and the men are wrong. (To be clear: mitzad democracy.)

Again, mitzad democracy (and this is the perspective of these complainers), a driver should not tell a girl she isn't dressed enough and cannot ride. (If you aren't going to pass a law defining public decency, you can't decide anything is indecent.) Yet this has happened in the last few weeks.

It shouldn't be verboten to ASK. But so many have not - they have DEMANDED. And because of the (WRONG) Chiloni perspective, they are tired of it. None of this excuses Neria for reasons that have been articulated well enough by everyone else.

On the other hand, when (as I have noted elsewhere) the Supreme Court prohibits a Charedi cultural event of some sort - funded by us, attended by us - because of separate seating, that is inexcusable. We should have the right to do as we wish among our own.

Also, the Torah does not believe in democracy nor tolerance for averah. The only reason Jews were into democracy was because it was better than what came before it.

[biobook]

LOL. I appreciate your confidence in me but the problem with these terms, as I think @ExGingi is trying to say, is that they are almost always used subjectively differently.

These are examples of how you describe particular people, but the question I had (IDK if this is why Dan asked) was why did NK refer to this man as chareidi, rather than use a more encompassing term, such as religious, orthodox, dati, frum.  Is it because NK was ignorant of such distinctions?  Or is it because the terms themselves have changed, such that chareidi is now used by the general public/news media to refer to anybody religious?

[TimT]

why did NK refer to this man as chareidi, rather than use a more encompassing term, such as religious, orthodox, dati, frum.

No sane person here can possibly know what’s going through her twisted mind.

[ExGingi]

why did NK refer to this man as chareidi, rather than use a more encompassing term, such as religious, orthodox, dati, frum.

Simple answer: black velvet (or cloth) yarmulka.

I remember a time when people referred to כיפות סרוגות vs כיפות שחורות.

[biobook]

That's why if you aren't able to book seats together and you plan on asking someone to switch, it is important to board as early as possible to ask people before they get settled.

If that's so, then there's another reason why I've never seen this swarm of switchers.

1. It doesn't happen on the flights I fly on.
2. I'm clueless about what's going on around me.

3. Years ago, when I flew frequently, this switching was uncommon.  In more recent years, I'm usually the last to board.

[biobook]

Simple answer: black velvet (or cloth) yarmulka.

I remember a time when people referred to כיפות סרוגות vs כיפות שחורות.

And you're saying that Israeli media now refers to  כיפות שחורות as = chareidi?

[TimT]

Have any witnesses come forward to corroborate her side of the story ?

[mevinyavin]

These are examples of how you describe particular people, but the question I had (IDK if this is why Dan asked) was why did NK refer to this man as chareidi, rather than use a more encompassing term, such as religious, orthodox, dati, frum.  Is it because NK was ignorant of such distinctions?  Or is it because the terms themselves have changed, such that chareidi is now used by the general public/news media to refer to anybody religious?

What I'm saying is that the nuance that used to exist when outsiders viewed us is gone, or at least drastically less. The dialogue is all about the extremes and anyone who isn't quite as extreme is being looped together anyway. At least, this is my impression of their impressions, and I don't assume I'm right but the empirical evidence is strong that I am.
It is true that the less far away one is from the extremes, the more nuance one seems to be capable of. But someone on the extreme left can't see any nuance on the extreme right of the spectrum.

And you're saying that Israeli media now refers to  כיפות שחורות as = chareidi?

The left media does, yes. The right media is more nuanced in their labels. I definitely recall more accurate demographic description on Arutz Sheva versus on Times of Israel.

[ExGingi]

And you're saying that Israeli media now refers to  כיפות שחורות as = chareidi?

Definitely. This is basically their litmus test for terming someone as Charedi.

They wouldn't refer to anyone that walks around in a crocheted or knitted yarmulka as Charedi.

[ExGingi]

Definitely. This is basically their litmus test for terming someone as Charedi.

They wouldn't refer to anyone that walks around in a crocheted or knitted yarmulka as Charedi.

Obviously they would also term Yerushalmis that where white yarmulkas as such, but they are more likely to have more extreme terms for those. 

[Dan]

On the topic of seat trades, here's an upcoming flight that we have, all seats pictured are E+:



I could have booked 10ABEF and 2 seats in 11 I guess, but opted to do it that way.

My assumption is that either 15AB will trade for 10AB or 10C will trade for 15C as there's not really much to lose with the comparable seats. I'll board early to be able to make that request before they settle in.

But if they both say no, c'est la vie. Probably put our oldest son in 15C.

[TimT]

On the topic of seat trades, here's an upcoming flight that we have, all seats pictured are E+:



I could have booked 10ABEF and 2 seats in 11 I guess, but opted to do it that way.

My assumption is that either 15AB will trade for 10AB or 10C will trade for 15C. I'll board early to be able to make that request before they settle in.

But if they both say no, c'est la vie. Probably put our oldest son in 15C.

Don’t remove the cap

[Dan]

Don’t remove the cap

What if there's a kipa seruga under the cap?