Author Topic: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance  (Read 7243 times)

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2023, 04:40:43 PM »
yay another insurance thread

If only there was a way to protect yourself from such an eventuality

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2023, 04:52:22 PM »
I recall once hearing that some chasidishe kehillos are against/don't encourage life insurance, any accuracy to this?
Yes. And not only Chassidish. There are plenty of Yeshivish people who hold the same.

Offline ushdadude

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #62 on: November 30, 2023, 05:13:25 PM »
Yes. And not only Chassidish. There are plenty of Yeshivish people who hold the same.
Maybe we should make people who want to start holding like that sign a waiver that in case of a tragedy they're families won't collect from the tzibbur :P

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #63 on: November 30, 2023, 05:14:28 PM »
This anecdotal evidence is essentially worthless without knowing how many people you know of, among other things. For instance, if we're going by your experience, how many families do you know of that have had their breadwinner die pre-retirement, and how does that number compare to the 5 that you mentioned re: diability?

Except for one of those I mentioned who was a client of mine, the rest were not they were friends and/or family. Trying to think about people I know who were family breadwinners and died prematurely, another couple of names came to mind, and they too were disabled before passing on.

For breadwinners to pass away prematurely, it can be either a serious illness or an accident. In all cases that come to mind at the moment where it was an illness, death was preceded by a disability due to that illness. The one case I mentioned where the person is BH alive, it was a serious disability due to an accident.

I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline niebloomj

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #64 on: November 30, 2023, 05:16:39 PM »
Yes. And not only Chassidish. There are plenty of Yeshivish people who hold the same.

In Chabad its encouraged. The Rebbe spoke about it directly.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #65 on: November 30, 2023, 05:17:19 PM »
Maybe we should make people who want to start holding like that sign a waiver that in case of a tragedy they're families won't collect from the tzibbur :P

Not sure if I mentioned it here before, but I once heard from Rabbi Deutsch from Yerushalaim that for many years he didn't pay for "Kupat Cholim" (Israeli medical insurance) saying he would rather pay out of pocket when needed. One time he was travelling to 770, and his wife urged him to ask the Rebbe about this. So when he went into Yechidus he wrote the question amongst other things on his note handed to the Rebbe.

The Rebbe responded that regarding that question he should join Kupat Cholim משום אל תפרוש מן הציבור.
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #66 on: November 30, 2023, 05:19:38 PM »
In Chabad its encouraged. The Rebbe spoke about it directly.

The Rebbe learns a הוראה בעבודת השם from it in the sicha of יב תמוז ה'תשי"א.

Other than that there's an answer to R' Zalman Gurary that says: פוק חזי מאי עמא דבר ואמליך בדביתיה וכן יעשה. R' Gurary said that this was an answer regarding purchase of life insurance.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline yelped

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #67 on: November 30, 2023, 05:26:50 PM »
Yes. And not only Chassidish. There are plenty of Yeshivish people who hold the same.
Source?

I've seen a Teshuvas Maharshag where he encourages it strongly.

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #68 on: November 30, 2023, 05:30:30 PM »
Maybe we should make people who want to start holding like that sign a waiver that in case of a tragedy they're families won't collect from the tzibbur :P
Maybe those groups actually give to families that have had tragedies happen to them unlike other groups who blame the victim and ask why they didn't have life insurance...  :P

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #69 on: November 30, 2023, 05:34:37 PM »
Source?

I've seen a Teshuvas Maharshag where he encourages it strongly.
Sounds like there are 3 Mehalchim:

https://dinonline.org/2018/06/04/life-insurance/

Pro:
Shu’t Igros Moshe, Orach Chayim 2:111; see also Orach Chayim 4:48), Emes L’yackov ftnt. 181, Shevet Halevi 4-1(2), Be’er Moshe 8-118, Yichave Daas 3-85, also see OHr Torah (5740 pg. 71)Shut Pri Hasadeh 2-44, Shut Lechem V’simla 2-Y:D 67, Olas Yitzchok CH:M 257, Divrei Ychezkel pg. 403 in the name of “The Shinover”, Oros Hamispat pg. 103, V’yivorech Davis pg. 175S. See Oz Nidberu 13-78, that a person should take out life insurance and that this is part of correct histadlus...

Only high level people don't need it:
R’ Y. Levenstein zt”l wrote to someone that he should learn Chovos Halevavos instead, that is a private letter that was written to a specific individual, and it is referring to a higher level than even a midas chasidus. He also says that this level is only for people that will be able to live on the lofty level of bitachon regarding all aspects of their lives. There is a similar idea brought in Olas Yitzchok CH:M 257 regarding a story brough in sefer Bais Yechezkel 2-pg. 197,  that there was a fire and the Chofetz Chaim still didn’t want to get fire insurance. He says there that this is a level for people in a very high level of bitachon.

Unncessesary:
...See Even Yisroel 9-162 that there is no obligation to do so. He also sites a reason not to take out life insurance, because it could be that the person has a zechus to live because he is supporting his wife and children, however if he has life insurance he won’t have that. This idea is also brought verbally in the name of the Chazon Ish, (See Hanhaga Beis Hazos pg. 6), It is also brought in the name of R’ C. Kanievsky shlit”a ( Alei Siach pg. 277) that it is not an obligation at all.

Offline ckmk47

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #70 on: November 30, 2023, 05:40:13 PM »
Maybe those groups actually give to families that have had tragedies happen to them unlike other groups who blame the victim and ask why they didn't have life insurance...  :P
Funny.  I have life insurance, but I give tzedoko.  But I'm upset they don't have life insurance.  How are they allowed to rely on me without asking my permission?
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #71 on: November 30, 2023, 05:45:05 PM »
Funny.  I have life insurance, but I give tzedoko.  But I'm upset they don't have life insurance.  How are they allowed to rely on me without asking my permission?
You're just a shliach from Hashem.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2023, 01:21:40 AM »
Maybe we should make people who want to start holding like that sign a waiver that in case of a tragedy their families won't collect from any tzibbur other than the one with the Rav who paskined they don't need it.
FTFM.
I would hope no one makes such decisions without discussing it with their Rav. Let the Rav also take responsibility for the outcome. The Rav's tzibbur donates money according to the Rav's shitos, lechora they are maskim or they would give somewhere else.
Agav, Rabbi Berkovits used to say that basic Bituach Leumi was sufficient hishtadlus. Then they took away emergency room stays overnight from coverage, and the Rav said everyone should upgrade their insurance to the level that covers overnight stays. (For Meuchedet, that is שיא.) Due to our personal circumstances, I also spring for עדיף.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2023, 01:24:40 AM »
FTFM.
I would hope no one makes such decisions without discussing it with their Rav. Let the Rav also take responsibility for the outcome. The Rav's tzibbur donates money according to the Rav's shitos, lechora they are maskim or they would give somewhere else.
Agav, Rabbi Berkovits used to say that basic Bituach Leumi was sufficient hishtadlus. Then they took away emergency room stays overnight from coverage, and the Rav said everyone should upgrade their insurance to the level that covers overnight stays. (For Meuchedet, that is שיא.) Due to our personal circumstances, I also spring for עדיף.

I wonder if he would feel differently if he had 10-15 people approach him each shachris who instead of dealing with an actual illness are halfway across the world raising money.
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Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2023, 02:13:25 AM »
I wonder if he would feel differently if he had 10-15 people approach him each shachris who instead of dealing with an actual illness are halfway across the world raising money.
Not sure how this is relevant? If you are suggesting that people who need money as the result of consulting with him go elsewhere, that is not true. The kehilla covers his kupah's needs.
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Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2023, 03:43:59 AM »
Not sure how this is relevant? If you are suggesting that people who need money as the result of consulting with him go elsewhere, that is not true. The kehilla covers his kupah's needs.
Exactly. Being that Israel is a socialist country there are 2 options when something happens:
a) Its fully covered and you get , like, brains surgery for 50 shekel
b) Its not covered and/or they have terrible treatment and you need to shell out $100,000 to actually get healed.

But everyone in Israel has health insurance.

Offline aygart

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2023, 09:19:26 AM »
Not sure how this is relevant? If you are suggesting that people who need money as the result of consulting with him go elsewhere, that is not true. The kehilla covers his kupah's needs.


No I am saying that I am seeing results of inadequate coverage
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Offline aygart

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2023, 09:22:03 AM »
Exactly. Being that Israel is a socialist country there are 2 options when something happens:
a) Its fully covered and you get , like, brains surgery for 50 shekel
b) Its not covered and/or they have terrible treatment and you need to shell out $100,000 to actually get healed.

But everyone in Israel has health insurance.

This is not insurance. This is prepaid medical. @ExGingi

Insurance is to insure that if something catastrophic happens it does not cause bankruptcy. This does not have that benefit considering the number of people approaching me daily?
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2023, 09:46:38 AM »
This is not insurance. This is prepaid medical. @ExGingi

It's a combination of the two. True in the US except for Catastrophic plans for those that qualify, and to a certain extent HSA compatible plans. There's an added "benefit" of large group negotiated pricing.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #79 on: December 02, 2023, 01:08:40 PM »
This is not insurance. This is prepaid medical. @ExGingi

Insurance is to insure that if something catastrophic happens it does not cause bankruptcy. This does not have that benefit considering the number of people approaching me daily?
Um, who said the people approaching you daily had the extra level of coverage I mentioned?
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