Why is Jewish Day School tuition so high?

[Drago]

I'm interested in hearing people's informed opinions about why it's so high, and what can be done to lower it.

Let me preface by saying that the average cost of a public school student is also around 13k-15k, so the answer may simply be that Jewish day school tuition isn't so high on a relative basis.

Below are some of the questions I'm interested in hearing discussed:

1) Is there lots of cross-subsidization going on?
2) Is tuition much higher in the tri-state area, and if so, why?
3) Is it possible some people are being paid way above their true market value? (I knew of a 350k salary for the principal of a school a few years ago, which seemed to be way out of line.)
4) Are MO schools generally more expensive, and if so, why?
5) Are chassidish schools generally cheaper, and if so, why?
6) Would having more communal oversight over school finances be a good thing, or just cause problems?
7) Should schools of different pursuasions band together to cut costs on the fixed overheads?
8 ) Are people having fewer children as a result of day school tuitions?
9) How does a beis medrash program justify charging high tuitions for the right to sit and learn all day?
10) Do people find the tuition discount programs to be too intrusive into ppl's personal financial lives, or not intrusive enough?
11) What are the tricks ppl typically do on their discount applications in order to hide their income?

What else am I missing?

Chime in civilly!

[PlatinumGuy]

Didn't read all - but $15k times 20 students is $300,000/yr per class. Not that much when you have pay teachers salaries and other expenses.

[Drago]

Didn't read all - but $15k times 20 students is $300,000/yr per class. Not that much when you have pay teachers salaries and other expenses.

On a very simplified level, a single teacher could theorectically work a full day (similar to other professions), teach the class, receive a salary of $90,000 (w/ 2 months summer vacation), and still have $210,000 remaining to play with.

[PlatinumGuy]

Shokiach. In practice they're paying more than 1 teacher.

[Side incomer]

Shokiach. In practice they're paying more than 1 teacher.

No kid is in school for more 8 learning hours (even the oldest children). In Chassish Schools the Rebbis get paid $20-25 an hour tops, which is not good, because then you don't always get the best quality...
But I think $35-40 is extremely nicely paid.

$40 x 8 x 5 x 50 = $80,000

That means that between all teachers combined, a class room has no reason to cost more than 80K a year.
Even if you double that (!!) you are still at 160K a year. How in the world are you getting to $300K?

And don't forget that all schools still have government programs etc...

[Drago]

Shokiach. In practice they're paying more than 1 teacher.

Obviously.
I was pointing out that a teacher can teach 8 hours in a day. Whether that's 8 one hour classes to different grades, or 8 hours of classes to the same grade, doesn't change the math on the school wide level.

[Sport]

No kid is in school for more 8 learning hours (even the oldest children). In Chassish Schools the Rebbis get paid $20-25 an hour tops, which is not good, because then you don't always get the best quality...
But I think $35-40 is extremely nicely paid.

$40 x 8 x 5 x 50 = $80,000

That means that between all teachers combined, a class room has no reason to cost more than 80K a year.
Even if you double that (!!) you are still at 160K a year. How in the world are you getting to $300K?

And don't forget that all schools still have government programs etc...

I would say it's even less than 80k to teachers per classroom. They have off for 8-10 weeks between. Summer and chagim.
Either way In most yeshivahs who is paying 15k. My completely uneducated guess is that most parents are probably paying under 10k. You also have a significant amount probably goes to subsidize other students' tuition.

[Achas Veachas]

I would say it's even less than 80k to teachers per classroom. They have off for 8-10 weeks between. Summer and chagim.
Either way In most yeshivahs who is paying 15k. My completely uneducated guess is that most parents are probably paying under 10k. You also have a significant amount probably goes to subsidize other students' tuition.

+1
Theoretically if everyone paid full tuition schools would be able to afford to lower the tuition for everyone.

[Sport]

FYI I just read that in NYC it costs the city 20k a student per year. But it's not comparable to yeshivah tuition; between pensions, other benifit a and all the extra curricular activities their cost should be much greater.

[peacenlove613]

As the administrator of a school I can say that the main reason tuition is so high is because the majority of parents don't pay full tuition and even those parents who get breaks don't pay what they promise. So we are left with very large deficit gaps. We need to inflate the prices so those who can afford full will offset those who don't pay. Also if we ask a parent who doesn't have much to give for 15k a year we might get 6-7 but if we only ask for 10 we only get 4-5.

[sky121]

Out of a class of 25 just about 3 paid full tuition when I was in school.

[peacenlove613]

And the rest probably still owe at half of what they promised.

[Sport]

As the administrator of a school I can say that the main reason tuition is so high is because the majority of parents don't pay full tuition and even those parents who get breaks don't pay what they promise. So we are left with very large deficit gaps. We need to inflate the prices so those who can afford full will offset those who don't pay. Also if we ask a parent who doesn't have much to give for 15k a year we might get 6-7 but if we only ask for 10 we only get 4-5.

What type of school are you administrator for ; MO, chasidush cheder, Yeshivish ...?

[Achas Veachas]

What type of school are you administrator for ; MO, chasidush cheder, Yeshivish ...?

I believe that's more or less the situation everywhere.

[PlatinumGuy]

cost should be much greater.

If the 20k excludes real estate value that's probably wrong.

[CS1]

On a very simplified level, a single teacher could theorectically work a full day (similar to other professions), teach the class, receive a salary of $90,000 (w/ 2 months summer vacation), and still have $210,000 remaining to play with.

Schools pay rent/mortgage, electricity, desks + computers, principals, secretaries, phone bills, heat, A/C, administrators, dean, CEO, special needs dept, substitutes, maintenance/cleaning...  Those costs are much higher than the teachers' salaries.

[Sport]

If the 20k excludes real estate value that's probably wrong.

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that if the 20k cost doesn't include payment for the property of the school then there is no way it costs 20k per kid?

[PlatinumGuy]

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that if the 20k cost doesn't include payment for the property of the school then there is no way it costs 20k per kid?

The city doesn't pay for the property. Jewish schools do. Hence if the 20k excludes the RE value, your assumption that the cost structure at Jewish schools is lower is probably wrong.

[Dan]

Public school teachers make very good salaries and have incredible benefits and pension plans.  Jewish schools costs are much lower in that regard.

[PlatinumGuy]

Public school teachers make very good salaries and have incredible benefits and pension plans.  Jewish schools costs are much lower in that regard.

Jewish teachers get free tuition for their kids. That probably exceeds the public schools benefits...