Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread

[Moshe Green]

It's interesting that bringing up valid criticism of conspicuous consumption is "trolling".
I've heard enough respected rabbanim bring up EVERY one of the points @Moshe Green wrote.
If you don't like what he says - explain why he's wrong

Thank you.
I don't know a single person who has gone to a gaudy hotel for Pesach (maybe i do but they never told me). I am not interested in it at all. And I'm not sure anyone in my neighborhood would be interested in such a thing. Just the opposite, they try as hard as they can NOT to get flown out to the US for Pesach. In fact, I was offered to be flown to the US for Pesach as well and turned down the offer. I Boruch Hashem have amazing family and friends who just spending time with them makes the Yom Tov special.

Everything I wrote was not from my own Chiddushim but from what i've researched extensively over the years (I'm a bit of a Kashrus buff).

I will admit that there may be a culture difference here. But as  was written by dasmo801, you can't have it all. It's either going to be Pesach or "lets hurry through maggid because Chef Lois made the best BBQ ribs for the seuda" and "i'm so happy that there's in house baby sitting so i can relax the whole chag and not spend a single ounce of attention on the kids".

Yes, there are those who are used to the high class service and perhaps they need this to have a nice Yom Tov. But they are far and few in between and it's imppossible that they are gaining from the Chag what they could be if they would be at home...

[aygart]

Because indulging in gashmiyus by definition comes at the expense of the ruchniyus.
Maybe traditional was the wrong word. What I mean is that one may be able to preserve the spiritual aspect of pesach in some of the simpler programs and thats how I understood MG's point.

One person's simple can easily be the other person's indulgence. Everyone would be much better off looking at their own indulgences rather than those of others.

You can have someone who hasn't eaten in a restaurant their whole life yet he indulges in cigarettes. Is his indulgence better than the indulgence of the guy eating steak?

[aygart]

Thank you.
I don't know a single person who has gone to a gaudy hotel for Pesach (maybe i do but they never told me). I am not interested in it at all. And I'm not sure anyone in my neighborhood would be interested in such a thing. Just the opposite, they try as hard as they can NOT to get flown out to the US for Pesach. In fact, I was offered to be flown to the US for Pesach as well and turned down the offer. I Boruch Hashem have amazing family and friends who just spending time with them makes the Yom Tov special.

Everything I wrote was not from my own Chiddushim but from what i've researched extensively over the years (I'm a bit of a Kashrus buff).

I will admit that there may be a culture difference here. But as  was written by dasmo801, you can't have it all. It's either going to be Pesach or "lets hurry through maggid because Chef Lois made the best BBQ ribs for the seuda" and "i'm so happy that there's in house baby sitting so i can relax the whole chag and not spend a single ounce of attention on the kids".

Yes, there are those who are used to the high class service and perhaps they need this to have a nice Yom Tov. But they are far and few in between and it's imppossible that they are gaining from the Chag what they could be if they would be at home...

I have been in hotels for pesach many times due to 75+ years of family history. I did not enjoy it at all, but you are WAY off base. Those who are rushing through magid in the hotel for Chef Luis' ribs would rush through at home for the ribs they have there if even that much. THose who don't give there kids attention when there is in-house baby sitting don't give their kids attention when there is no babysitting either.
You can also have plenty of people who rush through magid and don't give their kids attention because they are worn out and overworked from prep and when they go away they now have the leisure to go through the seder nicely and slowly with the entire extended family of 4-5 generations and then enjoy the ribs late at night.

[alexk.]

I think this discussion really goes beyond Pesach Programs...

As many seforim bring down, one of the underlying themes of Pesach and the prohibition of Chametz, is to cut down on indulgence (Chametz = Yatzer Horah according to the Penimius hatorah). We will call it the spirit of the law. That is really the Ikur of the Yom Tov.

It is not to see how we can try to circumvent the restrictions to indulge as much as possible and still be "within the rules of the law".

Obviously each have to do it on their own level and what they can handle.

I am not one who doesn't buy any products. I do, however, try to limit for my family the overall bought products. It gets more and more difficult each year when you see the vast availability of new products. Niskatnu Hadoros. I commend those who do it without any outside products.   

Look at the overall development of the Pesach Food Experience in your local groceries. Do we really need Non-Gebrokst Pesach Pretzels? Hot Dog and Hamburger Buns? Animal Crackers? Do we need to have Pesach food look and feel like Chometz to the point that it is indistinguishable by look ( I know the taste is not there yet...)?

Someone I know had come home one Chol Hamoed morning from shopping and found their 5 year old eating Chometz Pretzels. The parents were horrified. After asking the child where he got it from, he said the cleaning lady gave it to him. He didn't know what the issue was, since they eat "pretzels" ( the pesach ones) on pesach and he told the cleaning girl he wanted pretzels and she gave that to him. The same pretzels he always eats.

Now you can say that more safeguards could have been made to ensure no chometz was around, etc... But the simple answer is if the kids knew that we don't eat pretzels on Pesach, which should be a basic thing that kids learn in kindergarten and from their parents, the kid would know it is wrong.

So those who can afford to go to programs and need to go to programs, Gei Gezunt Aheit. If it enhances your Simchas Yom Tov, that is great.

However, there is a reason why the most talked about part and most advertised part of a program is the level of indulgence. That is what sells; and that is what a majority of the people want.   

[Dan]

As many seforim bring down, one of the underlying themes of Pesach and the prohibition of Chametz, is to cut down on indulgence (Chametz = Yatzer Horah according to the Penimius hatorah). We will call it the spirit of the law. That is really the Ikur of the Yom Tov.

Chassidus says that Chametz = Arrogance. There is a moral superiority arrogance going on in this thread, which is just as bad as those who use Pesach as an excuse to overindulge.

Perhaps it's worse, as our main avoda is to work on ourselves, and not to spend time worrying about what others do that we don't like.

[Yehudaa]

it's imppossible that they are gaining from the Chag what they could be if they would be at home...

If this is in fact the issue at hand, can you please tell us what people could do to gain more from Shavuos, or Rosh Hashana, or Sukkos? I haven't seen a single post from you about people who r"l don't open a sefer on Shavous, or people who don't know a word of what they daven on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. Perhaps you ought to educate us about those, if your mission is to make sure that other people celebrate their yamim tovim properly.

Is your intense concern here really about making sure every one of our brethren gain as much as possible from yom tov? Or is it maybe more about a bit of jealousy that you're in denial about?

[Something Fishy]

If this is in fact the issue at hand, can you please tell us what people could do to gain more from Shavuos, or Rosh Hashana, or Sukkos? I haven't seen a single post from you about people who r"l don't open a sefer on Shavous, or people who don't know a word of what they daven on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. Perhaps you ought to educate us about those, if your mission is to make sure that other people celebrate their yamim tovim properly.

...because this is a discussion about Pesach programs. Why would anyone talk about Shavuos, or Rosh Hashana, or Sukkos?

I would assume he would apply his point equally to those yomim tovim.

[Moshe Green]

Chassidus says that Chametz = Arrogance. There is a moral superiority arrogance going on in this thread, which is just as bad as those who use Pesach as an excuse to overindulge.

Perhaps it's worse, as our main avoda is to work on ourselves, and not to spend time worrying about what others do that we don't like.

No one here is spending time worrying about others. No one here is arrogant or feeling morally superior. We all have our own deficiencies and recognize that fact.

There was a slew of Pesach programs closing and it of course there's a reason for it.

There is a possibility that Hashem doesn't want us going to them for certain reasons that occur in a hotel which are diametrically against Hashkafas HaTorah.

There is no reason to be personally offended. It's just food for thought. And if it doesn't apply to you then think nothing of it.

[Dan]

No one here is spending time worrying about others. No one here is arrogant or feeling morally superior. We all have our own deficiencies and recognize that fact.

There was a slew of Pesach programs closing and it of course there's a reason for it.

There is a possibility that Hashem doesn't want us going to them for certain reasons that occur in a hotel which are diametrically against Hashkafas HaTorah.

There is no reason to be personally offended. It's just food for thought. And if it doesn't apply to you then think nothing of it.

Aha. Because 1% of Pesach programs closed, as they have since Pesach programs were created, it's because Hashem doesn't want any programs and not because people are bad at math, logistics, marketing, or honesty.

BH that Hashem has a spokeman here to determine which of our pet peeves was the cause for 99% of programs operating and 1% failing!

[dasmo801]

Chassidus says that Chametz = Arrogance. There is a moral superiority arrogance going on in this thread, which is just as bad as those who use Pesach as an excuse to overindulge.

Perhaps it's worse, as our main avoda is to work on ourselves, and not to spend time worrying about what others do that we don't like.

IMVHO, there is nothing wrong with a discussion about the propriety of these very publicly advertised programs. The nature of having a diverse group here means that there will be a spectrum of opinions. Yes, by extension that means that some opinions might be at odds with what some people do. That doesn't equal moral superiority.

[Afrages6]

No one here is spending time worrying about others. No one here is arrogant or feeling morally superior. We all have our own deficiencies and recognize that fact.

There was a slew of Pesach programs closing and it of course there's a reason for it.

There is a possibility that Hashem doesn't want us going to them for certain reasons that occur in a hotel which are diametrically against Hashkafas HaTorah.

There is no reason to be personally offended. It's just food for thought. And if it doesn't apply to you then think nothing of it.

For someone who has no problem dishing out mussar on a large swath of people who you admittedly have ZERO to do with. You seem to be willing not take an ounce of mussar from people directly responding to your words.

[avromie7]

IMVHO, there is nothing wrong with a discussion about the propriety of these very publicly advertised programs. The nature of having a diverse group here means that there will be a spectrum of opinions. Yes, by extension that means that some opinions might be at odds with what some people do. That doesn't equal moral superiority.

I don't think anyone here has an issue with discussing the propriety of pesach programs. The problem here is the way people pass judgement on those they know nothing about.

[Dan]

IMVHO, there is nothing wrong with a discussion about the propriety of these very publicly advertised programs. The nature of having a diverse group here means that there will be a spectrum of opinions. Yes, by extension that means that some opinions might be at odds with what some people do. That doesn't equal moral superiority.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with a discussion, but several key words were used that indicate trolling/jealousy/judging from a place of moral superiority as a factor.

I also have problems with the programs (though it was also the only time in the past 20 years that I was able to spend Pesach with my grandparents), but how it comes across is very telling.

[Yehudaa]

I would assume he would apply his point equally to those yomim tovim.

I don't assume so, personally.

IMVHO, there is nothing wrong with a discussion about the propriety of these very publicly advertised programs. The nature of having a diverse group here means that there will be a spectrum of opinions. Yes, by extension that means that some opinions might be at odds with what some people do. That doesn't equal moral superiority.

Absolutely nothing wrong with discussing the issue. But like most things in life, it's not about what is said; it's about how it's said.

Coming on here and saying "I think pesach hotels are a terrible idea because..." would be a valid discussion. The comments below, on the other hand, do reek of the moral superiority that has been mentioned here, IMO.

Maybe Hashem is sending us a message.

I am not interested in it at all. And I'm not sure anyone in my neighborhood would be interested in such a thing. Just the opposite, they try as hard as they can NOT to get flown out to the US for Pesach. In fact, I was offered to be flown to the US for Pesach as well and turned down the offer. I Boruch Hashem have amazing family and friends who just spending time with them makes the Yom Tov special.

it's imppossible that they are gaining from the Chag what they could be if they would be at home...

[Just A Jew]

There was a slew of Pesach programs closing and it of course there's a reason for it.

There is a possibility that Hashem doesn't want us going to them for certain reasons that occur in a hotel which are diametrically against Hashkafas HaTorah.

If that's the message Hashem is trying to send, He needs a new marketing manager. Shut down a well respected and established program through an act of G-d and maybe people will see a message. Shut down fringe, opportunistic programs because people are doing what people do.... sorry, not seeing any messages in there other than whatever has been posted in the Due Diligence thread.

[ejb123]

...because this is a discussion about Pesach programs. Why would anyone talk about Shavuos, or Rosh Hashana, or Sukkos?

I would assume he would apply his point equally to those yomim tovim.

I guess the wrong time to bring up the $1000 Salt Steakhouse Shaloch Manos Meat Board...

[Dave321]

I dont understand the hate for these programs. I have been on programs and I pay between 15-20k a year. I have my reasons why we go and I dont feel the need to answer up to people.
if you are able to stay home and make pesach, your blessed. but not everyone can. its the fact of life. some of us are working up until the last min.

[aygart]

it's imppossible that they are gaining from the Chag what they could be if they would be at home...

I can tell you with 100% certainty that there are many people who gain a lot more at a program than they would at home because their home environment isn't conducive to gaining anything at all.

[Moshe Green]

I dont understand the hate for these programs. I have been on programs and I pay between 15-20k a year. I have my reasons why we go and I dont feel the need to answer up to people.
if you are able to stay home and make pesach, your blessed. but not everyone can. its the fact of life. some of us are working up until the last min.

How many people are you? Does it include airfare?

[Just A Jew]

How many people are you? Does it include airfare?

Why are you counting his money? If the problem is the program itself, that's irrelevant.