Author Topic: Dating in the jewish world while disabled  (Read 28722 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2018, 12:00:53 AM »
Could people help avoid certain scenarios if they set themselves boundries? Definitely. But I in no way believe that would fix most of the #metoo problems.  These problems have always been around. Even back in the day when men and women were a lot more conservative, dressed more modest, and were more apt to have boundries between the opposite sex that we don't have today. 
It wouldn't eliminate creeps, but if those women practiced halacha, how would a Weinstein situation occur time and time again?

I'm not blaming them even one iota. But I am genuinely curious how that wouldn't help.
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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2018, 12:29:14 AM »

But yes, the shiduch system fails people like me.

Of course the formal shidduch system fails you and many others.  There are different positives and negatives to different styles of dating.

FFB women donít necessarily appreciate the respect and seriousness frum men give them. I remember my coworkers being blown away that a guy would fly in to meet me and not expect anything physical.  I also know that both my husband and I were on the same frum dating website and we never even saw each otherís profile because we didnít fit the otherís preferences (we were both outside the otherís age range, for example). 

@Dan, I know you appreciate your parents vetting girls for you and finding your awesome wife.  I think itís such a bracha that they were able to do that for you.  If things hadnít worked out as planned though and you were single at 30 would you need that same amount of intervention?

I think itís SO important to have informal situations for people to meet and couldnít we all agree that over a certain age (for giggles, letís say 25) it isnít going to lead to any more temptation than just normal living, working, etc.?  Itís not going to lead to more one night stands. Are all these relationships going to be shomer negia until the chuppah, probably not, but I know lots of different types of people who consider themselves basically frum that are open about lots of stuff and none of them slept with their spouse before they got married. Frankly when youíre older and lived more you probably do need to date longer and get closer before marriage because you are trying to join two much more complex beings. 

Should we keep the ideal of the formal frum shidduch system? Absolutely and I hope it continues to work for the majority of people and will one day work for my children (yikes itís BĒH coming up pretty soon for me)!  Itís pure insanity, however, for older men and women to not be able to socialize in mixed company to meet people (and this is coming from someone who believes that men and women canít really be friends).  My roommate and I used to host mixed Shabbos meals and they were fun and now married couples definitely met at them.  And we also introduced people who got to meet and avoid a very painful blind date because of getting to spend some time together in an innocuous setting and realize a date would be a waste of time.  We followed Halacha though and were very careful about yichud (I remember once we somehow ended up with only one guy as our guest and so we had to keep our apartment door open and see all the strange looks of our neighbors going by)!  Like I said, I met my husband at a shabbat dinner, another friend met her husband at kiddush. We both used an informal shadchan to set the actual first date but they werenít really involved after a couple dates because it just wasnít necessary. My roommate met her husband at Simchas Torah and they just started dating.  Thatís not a shanda, itís awesome and the Kehilla has a cart full of frum kids because of it!

These kinds of encounters are public, wholesome, normal interactions.  It is important after meeting someone not to ďhang outĒ (as @Dan also noted, Halacha clearly guides us on appropriate settings) and to move to a pretty formal frum dating if there is mutual interest but what the heck does that have to do with how you meet?  Yíall are throwing the baby out with the bath water with your insistence only on pre-screened, formal introductions.

Offline Dan

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2018, 12:34:16 AM »
No argument to any of that, but I do think it's a bedieved situation if things don't work out within a couple years in the shidduch system.
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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2018, 12:36:35 AM »
No argument to any of that, but I do think it's a bedieved situation if things don't work out within a couple years in the shidduch system.

in the past, most singles were in the shidduch system for an average of 1-3 years.

Currently, there are singles searching for 2-10+ years.
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Offline Denverite

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #84 on: February 14, 2018, 12:55:13 AM »
No argument to any of that, but I do think it's a bedieved situation if things don't work out within a couple years in the shidduch system.

100% itís totally Bedieved.  I donít see aged 25+ FFB girls, living and working on their own in Lakewood or Crown Heights (and unfortunately I know a number of them), having any of these kind of wholesome mixed settings though, and I think they and the Kehilla are suffering from it.  Iím honestly not sure what the solution is and how to have these adults make this shift, with community support and approval (without these singles basically having to start aligning as modern orthodox).
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 12:58:42 AM by Denverite »

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #85 on: February 14, 2018, 07:23:14 AM »
It wouldn't eliminate creeps, but if those women practiced halacha, how would a Weinstein situation occur time and time again?

I'm not blaming them even one iota. But I am genuinely curious how that wouldn't help.
It WOULD help. I just don't think it would solve the whole situation as much as people tend to think. There's no doubt it would help.
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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #86 on: February 14, 2018, 07:36:21 AM »
I'm really scratching my head at jumping from mixed gender socialization at appropriate ages to one night stands.

I grew up MO in Monsey, went to a RW elementary school and then a MO high school (my sisters on the other hand ended up at Bais Yaakov and frummed out/shidduch dated). I don't think any of my friends at any point had one night stands. Besides, if you are talking about socializing singles who are looking to get married, presumably they would be looking for a real relationship and work towards that, same as a regular shidduch. (Never mind that I've heard some really creepy stories from friends who shidduch date) I can't think of a single negative reason for there to be separate seating for singles who are looking to get married at a wedding.


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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #87 on: February 14, 2018, 07:39:57 AM »
It wouldn't eliminate creeps, but if those women practiced halacha, how would a Weinstein situation occur time and time again?

I'm not blaming them even one iota. But I am genuinely curious how that wouldn't help.

Harvey Weinstein took advantage of his position of power. There are many men in positions of power who do that, some subtly some overtly. Many (creepy) rabbonim who take advantage of women quote real or fake halacha to them under the guise of being a Rabbi and knowing it. There are ways to prevent sexual assault and practical steps people can take, but it won't really stop until we as a society hand out some real repercussions for sexual harassment starting at really small levels. It shouldn't have to reach the point of physical assault before someone is taken seriously.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #88 on: February 14, 2018, 07:48:59 AM »
I am trying to understand this one night stand stuff. Do you think in the non-frum world those looking for their soulmate are engaging in one night stands?
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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #89 on: February 14, 2018, 07:56:21 AM »


Of course the formal shidduch system fails you and many others.  There are different positives and negatives to different styles of dating.

FFB women donít necessarily appreciate the respect and seriousness frum men give them. I remember my coworkers being blown away that a guy would fly in to meet me and not expect anything physical.  I also know that both my husband and I were on the same frum dating website and we never even saw each otherís profile because we didnít fit the otherís preferences (we were both outside the otherís age range, for example). 

@Dan, I know you appreciate your parents vetting girls for you and finding your awesome wife.  I think itís such a bracha that they were able to do that for you.  If things hadnít worked out as planned though and you were single at 30 would you need that same amount of intervention?

I think itís SO important to have informal situations for people to meet and couldnít we all agree that over a certain age (for giggles, letís say 25) it isnít going to lead to any more temptation than just normal living, working, etc.?  Itís not going to lead to more one night stands. Are all these relationships going to be shomer negia until the chuppah, probably not, but I know lots of different types of people who consider themselves basically frum that are open about lots of stuff and none of them slept with their spouse before they got married. Frankly when youíre older and lived more you probably do need to date longer and get closer before marriage because you are trying to join two much more complex beings. 

Should we keep the ideal of the formal frum shidduch system? Absolutely and I hope it continues to work for the majority of people and will one day work for my children (yikes itís BĒH coming up pretty soon for me)!  Itís pure insanity, however, for older men and women to not be able to socialize in mixed company to meet people (and this is coming from someone who believes that men and women canít really be friends).  My roommate and I used to host mixed Shabbos meals and they were fun and now married couples definitely met at them.  And we also introduced people who got to meet and avoid a very painful blind date because of getting to spend some time together in an innocuous setting and realize a date would be a waste of time.  We followed Halacha though and were very careful about yichud (I remember once we somehow ended up with only one guy as our guest and so we had to keep our apartment door open and see all the strange looks of our neighbors going by)!  Like I said, I met my husband at a shabbat dinner, another friend met her husband at kiddush. We both used an informal shadchan to set the actual first date but they werenít really involved after a couple dates because it just wasnít necessary. My roommate met her husband at Simchas Torah and they just started dating.  Thatís not a shanda, itís awesome and the Kehilla has a cart full of frum kids because of it!

These kinds of encounters are public, wholesome, normal interactions.  It is important after meeting someone not to ďhang outĒ (as @Dan also noted, Halacha clearly guides us on appropriate settings) and to move to a pretty formal frum dating if there is mutual interest but what the heck does that have to do with how you meet?  Yíall are throwing the baby out with the bath water with your insistence only on pre-screened, formal introductions.
+1
 Also, I  wouldn't be suprised if there was no correlation between how couples met and if they were shomer negiah between engagement and marriage- (if you remove legnth of engagement as a variable).

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #90 on: February 14, 2018, 08:06:33 AM »
I am trying to understand this one night stand stuff. Do you think in the non-frum world those looking for their soulmate are engaging in one night stands?
No. I disagree with that being the purpose of shidduch dating.
 My understanding is that once you meet someone there are many emotional and physical factors at play that will sway ones decision making. These are important and vital factors that need to be right in order to decide if the person you're dating is the one you want to marry but they can cloud your logical decision making.
the shidduch process, like any matchmaking system, allows you to first see if the basic are right, without other factors clouding your decisions.   

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #91 on: February 14, 2018, 08:21:22 AM »
No. I disagree with that being the purpose of shidduch dating.
 My understanding is that once you meet someone there are many emotional and physical factors at play that will sway ones decision making. These are important and vital factors that need to be right in order to decide if the person you're dating is the one you want to marry but they can cloud your logical decision making.
the shidduch process, like any matchmaking system, allows you to first see if the basic are right, without other factors clouding your decisions.
I think we are misunderstanding each other. I am talking about dating for non-Jews. There is this belief here that results in one night stands. These individuals that are engaged in one night stands do really think the reason they are dating is to find their soulmate?
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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #92 on: February 14, 2018, 08:24:00 AM »
Anyone feel free to correct me, but I think we're using the term one-night stand to refer loosely to sex outside of a committed relationship.  So for example, I wouldn't see much difference between sex on the first date versus the third date, but from every TV show I've seen, I understand that the latter is pretty much expected.

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #93 on: February 14, 2018, 08:26:42 AM »
I think we are misunderstanding each other. I am talking about dating for non-Jews. There is this belief here that results in one night stands. These individuals that are engaged in one night stands do really think the reason they are dating is to find their soulmate?
I don't think I misunderstood you. I answered your question and opined my disagreement with other's  assertion that shidduch dating is ment to avoid one night stands.

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #94 on: February 14, 2018, 08:33:33 AM »
Anyone feel free to correct me, but I think we're using the term one-night stand to refer loosely to sex outside of a committed relationship.  So for example, I wouldn't see much difference between sex on the first date versus the third date, but from every TV show I've seen, I understand that the latter is pretty much expected.
Then you don't understand what a one night stand is. I guess that is to be expected.  :)
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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #95 on: February 14, 2018, 08:34:59 AM »
I don't think I misunderstood you. I answered your question and opined my disagreement with other's  assertion that shidduch dating is ment to avoid one night stands.
Ok I reread it. Your first sentence had me confused.
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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #96 on: February 14, 2018, 09:21:59 AM »
I look at it differently. A true test of ones faith is when you overcome these situations. Trying to constantly shield someone IMHO does a disservice.
I know this was answered already but just wanted to add.

When I train lifeguards I always tell them you may meet a macho lifeguard that'll tell you he's saved 10 kids from drowning and how amazing he is. I tell them that in 10 years of guarding I have never saved anyone from drowning, because I never let my pool be in a situation where someone would be drowning.

The best lifeguards know when a drowning would occur and do everything they can do avoid being in that situation. Same thing with a test in Judaism. We build "fences" around the Torah in order that we shouldn't come to be drowning.
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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #97 on: February 14, 2018, 09:47:36 AM »
Of course the formal shidduch system fails you and many others.  There are different positives and negatives to different styles of dating.

FFB women donít necessarily appreciate the respect and seriousness frum men give them. I remember my coworkers being blown away that a guy would fly in to meet me and not expect anything physical.  I also know that both my husband and I were on the same frum dating website and we never even saw each otherís profile because we didnít fit the otherís preferences (we were both outside the otherís age range, for example). 

@Dan, I know you appreciate your parents vetting girls for you and finding your awesome wife.  I think itís such a bracha that they were able to do that for you.  If things hadnít worked out as planned though and you were single at 30 would you need that same amount of intervention?

I think itís SO important to have informal situations for people to meet and couldnít we all agree that over a certain age (for giggles, letís say 25) it isnít going to lead to any more temptation than just normal living, working, etc.?  Itís not going to lead to more one night stands. Are all these relationships going to be shomer negia until the chuppah, probably not, but I know lots of different types of people who consider themselves basically frum that are open about lots of stuff and none of them slept with their spouse before they got married. Frankly when youíre older and lived more you probably do need to date longer and get closer before marriage because you are trying to join two much more complex beings. 

Should we keep the ideal of the formal frum shidduch system? Absolutely and I hope it continues to work for the majority of people and will one day work for my children (yikes itís BĒH coming up pretty soon for me)!  Itís pure insanity, however, for older men and women to not be able to socialize in mixed company to meet people (and this is coming from someone who believes that men and women canít really be friends).  My roommate and I used to host mixed Shabbos meals and they were fun and now married couples definitely met at them.  And we also introduced people who got to meet and avoid a very painful blind date because of getting to spend some time together in an innocuous setting and realize a date would be a waste of time.  We followed Halacha though and were very careful about yichud (I remember once we somehow ended up with only one guy as our guest and so we had to keep our apartment door open and see all the strange looks of our neighbors going by)!  Like I said, I met my husband at a shabbat dinner, another friend met her husband at kiddush. We both used an informal shadchan to set the actual first date but they werenít really involved after a couple dates because it just wasnít necessary. My roommate met her husband at Simchas Torah and they just started dating.  Thatís not a shanda, itís awesome and the Kehilla has a cart full of frum kids because of it!

These kinds of encounters are public, wholesome, normal interactions.  It is important after meeting someone not to ďhang outĒ (as @Dan also noted, Halacha clearly guides us on appropriate settings) and to move to a pretty formal frum dating if there is mutual interest but what the heck does that have to do with how you meet?  Yíall are throwing the baby out with the bath water with your insistence only on pre-screened, formal introductions.

100% itís totally Bedieved.  I donít see aged 25+ FFB girls, living and working on their own in Lakewood or Crown Heights (and unfortunately I know a number of them), having any of these kind of wholesome mixed settings though, and I think they and the Kehilla are suffering from it.  Iím honestly not sure what the solution is and how to have these adults make this shift, with community support and approval (without these singles basically having to start aligning as modern orthodox).

You makes some very good points, but itís hard to see a practical way of implementing the above in a non MO setting. How do you draw the line with only the 25+ crowd (25 for a boy is probably too soon) chatting by the kiddush etc. and expect younger people to desist? How do you prevent the chatting from descending to what a right wing town would consider ďkalus RoshĒ?
 Having dedicated 25+ singles events is probably not going to work since these are notorious for being poorly attended by quality boys.

So good ideas in theory but extremely tough to implement in practice ....

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #98 on: February 14, 2018, 09:49:56 AM »
Then you don't understand what a one night stand is. I guess that is to be expected.  :)

The definition is in the name.

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #99 on: February 14, 2018, 09:51:55 AM »
I know this was answered already but just wanted to add.

When I train lifeguards I always tell them you may meet a macho lifeguard that'll tell you he's saved 10 kids from drowning and how amazing he is. I tell them that in 10 years of guarding I have never saved anyone from drowning, because I never let my pool be in a situation where someone would be drowning.

The best lifeguards know when a drowning would occur and do everything they can do avoid being in that situation. Same thing with a test in Judaism. We build "fences" around the Torah in order that we shouldn't come to be drowning.

Agree 100 percent.

Unfortunately in today's world we try to make everything fit in a box, so how can you even think about segregating the 2 sexes.....

Go on the marirage forums and you'll see thousands of posts of spouses being afraid that their spouses is cheating on them when they travel away for company business or similar. BH in the fum Jewish world most people are VERY comfortable when their spouses travel,  because we know  that no cheating will occur.

No system is 100% fool proof, but I know well in my heart that this system works best. As you can see that in the secular world where you do have the opportunity to date for years, the average Joe still has more than 7 partners in their lifetime. This tells you something.