Peace In The Middle East Master Thread

[Yehuda57]

If you think that one was bad you should see their recent one:

Wow. That is astoundingly bad.

[CountValentine]

Wow. That is astoundingly bad.

I only watched the first two minutes. Interesting how they word things.

[CountValentine]

How would you describe Gaza?
Common terms used is "occupied" or "open air prison".
I look at it as "open air prison".
Where am I wrong?

[skyguy918]

How would you describe Gaza?
Common terms used is "occupied" or "open air prison".
I look at it as "open air prison".
Where am I wrong?

Can you describe what makes it an open-air prison? Or occupied for that matter?

[Yehuda57]

How would you describe Gaza?
Common terms used is "occupied" or "open air prison".
I look at it as "open air prison".
Where am I wrong?

Calling it that or any other name doesn't help you or me understand why it is that way. Suffice to say, if it wasn't an "open air prison", I myself would have more than 50 dead cousins, and many people you are speaking to here would have been killed as well.

So call it a prison, call it a refugee camp, call it a state, but know what is being asked of Israel when they are told to cease "the occupation."

[CountValentine]

Can you describe what makes it an open-air prison? Or occupied for that matter?

Everything that goes in or out is controlled. Israel controls the water, electricity and everything else.
There is an old move Escape to New York. That is what it looks like.

[CountValentine]

Calling it that or any other name doesn't help you or me understand why it is that way. Suffice to say, if it wasn't an "open air prison", I myself would have more than 50 dead cousins, and many people you are speaking to here would have been killed as well.

So call it a prison, call it a refugee camp, call it a state, but know what is being asked of Israel when they are told to cease "the occupation."

If I understand you correctly you are saying why it has to be that way?
I am trying to understand those who say it is not an occupation or prison.

[skyguy918]

Everything that goes in or out is controlled. Israel controls the water, electricity and everything else.
There is an old move Escape to New York. That is what it looks like.

So if the people of any of the tiny landlocked European countries (Andorra, Luxembourg, etc.) started terrorizing their neighbors, and in response their neighbors all closed the borders to travel and trade, that would make them prisons somehow, and their neighbors collectively jailers? And truthfully, it doesn't have to be tiny countries. Same question for larger ones. At what point does it go from unfriendly neighbors to a prison?

If I understand you correctly you are saying why it has to be that way?
I am trying to understand those who say it is not an occupation or prison.

Israel has not occupied Gaza since the disengagement in 2005. Maybe you could discuss the West Bank's status as occupied, but I don't see how that label could be applied to Gaza.

[CountValentine]

So if the people of any of the tiny landlocked European countries (Andorra, Luxembourg, etc.) started terrorizing their neighbors, and in response their neighbors all closed the borders to travel and trade, that would make them prisons somehow, and their neighbors collectively jailers? And truthfully, it doesn't have to be tiny countries. Same question for larger ones. At what point does it go from unfriendly neighbors to a prison?

When you control everything?
I am not saying Israel shouldn't I am just saying we should call it what it is.

[CountValentine]

Israel has not occupied Gaza since the disengagement in 2005. Maybe you could discuss the West Bank's status as occupied, but I don't see how that label could be applied to Gaza.

What would you call it?

[Yehuda57]

If I understand you correctly you are saying why it has to be that way?

In that post, yes.

Everything that goes in or out is controlled. Israel controls the water, electricity and everything else.

1) Egypt has a crossing into as well which is somehow conveniently ignored.
2) Hamas is the governing body and they have the responsibility to provide for their citizens. Palestinians receive infinitely more international aid than any other refugees. The fact the citizens have not seen a fraction of it is because Hamas steals it.
3) I forget the exact number, but Israel is responsible for something like 9% of Gaza's water.
4) There are some areas in Gaza that look modern, are well-built, and dare I say, even luxurious. That is where Hamas leadership lives. They could have built more throughout Gaza, but it is in their interests to keep Gaza looking as slummy and prison-like as possible.
5) Israel left quite a bit of infrastructure in Gaza when it left in 2005 which could have been used to build self-sustaining resources for the strip. Guess what became of them.
6) Every nation is entitled to open or close its borders at its own will. (Every time Israel opens the border such as by expanding Israeli work permits, they get rewarded with more terror attacks)

Now ask yourself why neither Gaza nor the West Bank was called "occupied" between 1948 and 1967.

[smurf]

What would you call it?

Good fences make good neighbors.
The blockade wasn't always as fierce as it is now. It was tightened in response to attacks from Gaza.
And even recently they began to loosen crossing restrictions, and look what they got for it

[CountValentine]

Let me make this simple.
Israel is on two sides. They have every right to close their borders.
Egypt is on one side and has the same right.
The sea is on the fourth side and this blocked. No, they don't have a right to do that. I would if I was them.
They build an airport, and it will be bombed. No, they don't have a right to bomb it. I would if I was them.
Everything is controlled that goes in and out. Just call it what it is and that it has to be that way.
Then you can have an honest discussion.

[CountValentine]

And even recently they began to loosen crossing restrictions, and look what they got for it

That is the reason for making it an open-air prison.

[Yehuda57]

Let me make this simple.
Israel is on two sides. They have every right to close their borders.
Egypt is on one side and has the same right.
The sea is on the fourth side and this blocked. No, they don't have a right to do that. I would if I was them.
They build an airport, and it will be bombed. No, they don't have a right to bomb it. I would if I was them.
Everything is controlled that goes in and out. Just call it what it is and that it has to be that way.
Then you can have an honest discussion.

Occupation is a legal definition.

An occupation is when a territory is under the authority of a hostile enemy.

Can it be even called an occupation if two separate nations are occupying it?
Israel is not the authority in Gaza. Hamas is the governing body of Gaza. That is not an occupation. And if it is, then why is Egypt never called out by the UN for occupying Gaza?

So let's say you agree it is not an occupation, if you want to give it a name with a non-legal definition, like "open-air prison", that is entirely subjective.

[CountValentine]

Occupation is a legal definition.

An occupation is when a territory is under the authority of a hostile enemy.

Can it be even called an occupation if two separate nations are occupying it?
Israel is not the authority in Gaza. Hamas is the governing body of Gaza. That is not an occupation. And if it is, then why is Egypt never called out by the UN for occupying Gaza?

So let's say you agree it is not an occupation, if you want to give it a name with a non-legal definition, like "open-air prison", that is entirely subjective.

What name would you give it?
If you lived there, what would you call it?

Yes, Hamas is the governing body of Gaza. Would Israel allow them to build factories and airports?

[AYHG]

This notion is pathetic, and in no other context would such a term be considered.
By this definition, Switzerland was either occupied or was an open-air prison during WW2. All import and export was under German control.

[CountValentine]

This notion is pathetic, and in no other context would such a term be considered.

Ok lets say you are right. What do you call it.

[AYHG]

Ok lets say you are right. What do you call it.

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. What would you call any other awfully-run territory? How about "Gaza." Is there some sort of requirement for territories to have descriptive bylines?

You don't get to play around with the dictionary for your biased rhetorical purposes.

[Yehuda57]

What name would you give it?
If you lived there, what would you call it?

Yes, Hamas is the governing body of Gaza. Would Israel allow them to build factories and airports?

1) I don't know what name exactly. I view it as a hostile enemy state that should be conquered (and occupied, ironically enough).
2) Probably prison
3) Now? No to both. When they left Gaza? Airports, no. Factories yes. And had they actually even tried to build the factories, they would have allowed the airport and seaport as well. But that's Hamas, which is a self stated terror orginization.