Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?

[biobook]

Certainly not stating anything as fact or trying to convince anyone. Just what I see happening.
Maybe it only happens to my friends and family and I'm the problem

I think everyone has seen that to a certain extent. No one is saying everyone is like that, but as a general rule it seems to be the case.

Sure, I've seen older singles who seem exceedingly picky.  But I've also seen picky younger singles who get engaged at 21.
And I've also seen older couples whose ingrained habits make it hard to get along.  But I've also seen younger couples with the same problem.

One thing I haven't seen is that re-stating these anecdotes makes it any easier for singles to find a shidduch.  If there's no evidence that they're general truths, and there is evidence that they're hurtful to singles, maybe we shouldn't repeat them.

[Dan]

Sure, I've seen older singles who seem exceedingly picky.  But I've also seen picky younger singles who get engaged at 21.
And I've also seen older couples whose ingrained habits make it hard to get along.  But I've also seen younger couples with the same problem.

One thing I haven't seen is that re-stating these anecdotes makes it any easier for singles to find a shidduch.  If there's no evidence that they're general truths, and there is evidence that they're hurtful to singles, maybe we shouldn't repeat them.

I hereby appoint you to make a scientific study on the subject

[mmgfarb]

Is my badge under attack?

If you want me to change my signature to "ExGingi's Earwax" I can.

[biobook]

I hereby appoint you to make scientific study on the subject

And the research grant you're offering is paid in dollars or points?

[Dan]

And the research grant you're offering is paid in dollars or points?

Shadchonis gelt.

[biobook]

Shadchonis gelt.

Apropos.

[NTorch]

As I was reading these posts I thought about a sha'alah that Rabbi Frand asked during his shiur this past Thursday Night.

There was a bochur who was quite particular and turned down many shidduch opportunities. One of the Rebbeim in his yeshiva was bothered that the bochur was getting older and was single. The Rebbi said to him - I have a girl for you with "all the ma'alos" with one issue - she limps. He was not interested.

A few days later the Rebbi came back to him and said that he had a shidduch for him a girl with "all the ma'alos" but she is divorced.

The bochur was upset - these are the girls that are being read to me?

Not long after, the bochur became engaged to a girl who had "all the ma'alos" who he had turned down for a shidduch numerous times before.

When they asked him why he had said yes this time, he said that before he thought he was Hashem's gift to humanity, but seeing the girls that had been read to him more recently, he realized that he was getting older and that maybe he was not as hot a commodity as he thought.

The Rebbi then asked R' Yitzchok Zilberstein whether he was oveir on Ona'as Devorim by suggesting these girls (they were actually fictional)  for the bochur and causing him agmas nefesh by knocking him down a few pegs.

R' Frand said that R' Yitzchok Zilberstein said that this was not Ona'as Devorim, because this was l'toeles.

But the upshot is rather clear (and this is me talking). Sometimes a person will turn down a shidduch not because of the other person, but because of their unhealthy or unrealistic views of themselves.

[drosenberg88429]

As I was reading these posts I thought about a sha'alah that Rabbi Frand asked during his shiur this past Thursday Night.

There was a bochur who was quite particular and turned down many shidduch opportunities. One of the Rebbeim in his yeshiva was bothered that the bochur was getting older and was single. The Rebbi said to him - I have a girl for you with "all the ma'alos" with one issue - she limps. He was not interested.

A few days later the Rebbi came back to him and said that he had a shidduch for him a girl with "all the ma'alos" but she is divorced.

The bochur was upset - these are the girls that are being read to me?

Not long after, the bochur became engaged to a girl who had "all the ma'alos" who he had turned down for a shidduch numerous times before.

When they asked him why he had said yes this time, he said that before he thought he was Hashem's gift to humanity, but seeing the girls that had been read to him more recently, he realized that he was getting older and that maybe he was not as hot a commodity as he thought.

The Rebbi then asked R' Yitzchok Zilberstein whether he was oveir on Ona'as Devorim by suggesting these girls (they were actually fictional)  for the bochur and causing him agmas nefesh by knocking him down a few pegs.

R' Frand said that R' Yitzchok Zilberstein said that this was not Ona'as Devorim, because this was l'toeles.

But the upshot is rather clear (and this is me talking). Sometimes a person will turn down a shidduch not because of the other person, but because of their unhealthy or unrealistic views of themselves.

Well known story with the chazon ish, iinm

[yerushabubby]

Same reason why long-haulers in shidduchim have a harder time as time goes on. With each date they get more and more particular about what they're looking for...whether that person actually exists or not becomes the problem.

I have a number of friends who are "older singles".  One in particular refines what she tells shadchonim after dates based on the experience - not because she is getting pickier, but because she is encountering issues she never imagined she would be faced with.  For example, once agreeing to consider a divorced man, she never imagined that she would have to specify that he be both legally and halachically divorced!

[Euclid]

she never imagined that she would have to specify that he be both legally and halachically divorced!

Hilarious, if it wouldn't be so sad...

[ChapsTheMatzav]

Picallow.com allows you to upload and share a picture with a preset time and date that it auto deletes.

Until they screenshot it...

[nucheiner]

As I was reading these posts I thought about a sha'alah that Rabbi Frand asked during his shiur this past Thursday Night.

There was a bochur who was quite particular and turned down many shidduch opportunities. One of the Rebbeim in his yeshiva was bothered that the bochur was getting older and was single. The Rebbi said to him - I have a girl for you with "all the ma'alos" with one issue - she limps. He was not interested.

A few days later the Rebbi came back to him and said that he had a shidduch for him a girl with "all the ma'alos" but she is divorced.

The bochur was upset - these are the girls that are being read to me?

Not long after, the bochur became engaged to a girl who had "all the ma'alos" who he had turned down for a shidduch numerous times before.

When they asked him why he had said yes this time, he said that before he thought he was Hashem's gift to humanity, but seeing the girls that had been read to him more recently, he realized that he was getting older and that maybe he was not as hot a commodity as he thought.

The Rebbi then asked R' Yitzchok Zilberstein whether he was oveir on Ona'as Devorim by suggesting these girls (they were actually fictional)  for the bochur and causing him agmas nefesh by knocking him down a few pegs.

R' Frand said that R' Yitzchok Zilberstein said that this was not Ona'as Devorim, because this was l'toeles.

But the upshot is rather clear (and this is me talking). Sometimes a person will turn down a shidduch not because of the other person, but because of their unhealthy or unrealistic views of themselves.

There are campaigns encouraging people to redt Shidduchim. Aside from the obvious benefit of the person actually being the right one, I believe that when fellow peers give suggestions this helps frame peoples expectations and makes them more realistic about what to go for. It’s a good healthy dose of reality.

While most parents overshoot as they think their child is gods gift to humanity, there are instances where the opposite is true and people hear that enough people think their son is suitable for grade AAA girls. This is much more effective when it’s just regular people making the suggestion and not shadchanim.

[Lurker]

grade AAA girls

The idea that such a thing exists in shidduchim is THE problem.

[ExGingi]

The idea that such a thing exists in shidduchim is THE problem.

I'm not sure if it's THE problem, but it definitely makes me feel like I need to puke.

[Lurker]

I'm not sure if it's THE problem, but it definitely makes me feel like I need to puke.

IMO, it's chet eitz hada'as. Original sin. Most other issues stem from this narrative of perfection and grading people.

[ExGingi]

IMO, it's chet eitz hada'as. Original sin. Most other issues stem from this narrative of perfection and grading people.

As far as perfection is concerned, א מושלם איז פאראן נאר איינער!

As for grading people, wasn't that something done in the 1930s and early 1940s....

P.S.

I can tell you that after having married off one daughter, and a second one soon to be married, if I wanted to do so, I could probably find faults in their matches, no one is perfect. However I am 100% convinced that they are the perfect match for my daughters, they are wonderful people, and I love them as my own.

[cholent]

While I do think there are situations where it's fair for a guy to ask for a picture, I can get behind an initiative to stop the sending pictures as a default. This 30 day thing backed my the Meron tragedy, while started with good intentions, just seems like virtue signaling topped with a nice little dose of gas lighting. I'm open to my mind being changed about it though.

As far as 30 days, that's meant to be a start. Asking shadchanim to commit to never again sending pics is a bit much. This is like taking on an hour of machsom l'fi, it's a start. The hope is that once 30 days is up people will see it can be done and will be open to continuing.

This was never positioned as the reason Meron happened either, unlike the "reasons for Covid" finger pointing mentioned above. It was rather meant to be something done as a zchus for those who died, not unlike the kabbalah initiative mentioned elsewhere on these forums.

We can't solve all problems, and of course pictures in shidduchim are really just a symptom of some larger problems in society, but it's still a problem in and of itself. I only hope that by the time my daughters enter shidduchim I will be able to comfortably refuse to send pictures around without sabotaging their shidduch opportunities. That's why, when I first saw this initiative posted, I did the small amount I could to get additional Rabbanim to sign on and news sites to post it. I guess that makes me the outlier on this board.

[drosenberg88429]

I'm not sure if it's THE problem, but it definitely makes me feel like I need to puke.

It's basically THE problem. The mindset and perspective of thinking "What's the best I can get" (aka entitlement) instead of "What can I handle, and who would I work best with", is the backbone and foundation of most of these issues. (I'm guessing most marriage issues are also stem from the notion that one "deserves" better, and looking at "What does my spouse have to offer for me" instead of "What can we accomplish together".)

However, this is not a new issue. This has existed for a long time. The richer you were, the prettier a women or more prestigious a son in law you got. We've been grading people forever.

Focusing on things like looks is also an issue, and has also been an issue forever.

The only thing that's a new issue, and the this movement is trying to change, is the attempt to gauge attraction via an image vs meeting live. The argument is the there are many that would connect and generate mutual attraction in person, but do not get to meet because photographs, which are an ineffective arbiter of attraction, have become a standard grading tool prior to meeting. This is the only thing that this "initiative" (it's been an old discussion-there's nothing new the past couple weeks) is attempting to address.

The underlying issues of misplaced priorities and systemic practices which lead to some parties having an easier time in shidduchim than others, is not even on the table.

[aygart]

P.S.

I can tell you that after having married off one daughter, and a second one soon to be married, if I wanted to do so, I could probably find faults in their matches, no one is perfect. However I am 100% convinced that they are the perfect match for my daughters, they are wonderful people, and I love them as my own.

+1 at least on the one married daughter.

[ExGingi]

+1 at least on the one married daughter.

I hope you don't have as long of a break as I had between first and second wedding. Though I can't complain about my wonderful 5 grandchildren I've had since then.