Ask a Lubavitcher Anything

[imayid2]

Cross posting here.

He didn’t say anything about Reform Jews. He mentioned “Reformers”, and all the אהבת ישראל you have isn’t going to help the fact that those original “Reformers” who were שנה ופירש and were חוטא ומחטיא bear the full brunt of many quit vicious מאמרי חז״ל about them and their ilk.

[EliJelly]

This is more Chassidim vs. Litvaks take on things.

(It's a generalization, I know, there are exceptions on both perspectives, but overall, this is true.)

Can't be further from the truth. AKA נשתכח תורת הבעש׳׳ט

[yelped]

Can't be further from the truth. AKA נשתכח תורת הבעש׳׳ט

Not sure which direction you're referring to.

[EliJelly]

Not sure which direction you're referring to.

If there was a practical difference indeed how the Chassidim viewed/treated the Reform and Zionists movements in contrast to Litvaks (or חת׳׳ס ותלמידיו).

(I'm not gonna delve into that discussion now, just couldn't let that go unchecked )

[yelped]

If there was a practical difference indeed how the Chassidim viewed/treated the Reform and Zionists movements in contrast to Litvaks (or חת׳׳ס ותלמידיו).

(I'm not gonna delve into that discussion now, just couldn't let that go unchecked )

I hear what you're saying, but the outlook towards them is very different (I can quote from 3 different gezaas right now off the top of my head).

[EliJelly]

I hear what you're saying, but the outlook towards them is very different (I can quote from 3 different gezaas right now off the top of my head).

There was a certain outlook and inyan to stress on how holy every Jewish neshama is despite the level of observance, like the Barditchover was famous for and many others. But in practical terms how they dealt with the "movements" who sought to uproot yiddishkeit there was no difference. The Tzemach worked hand in hand with Reb Itzele Volozhiner to fight Reform in Russia, and later on the Rashab with Reb Chaim Brisker.

What Rav Avigdor Miller was discussing wasn't about the place of an individual non frum Jew has in Klal Yisroel, it was directed to the amount of legitimacy and acceptance many give to the State and it's parties as if they are part of the story of Klal Yisroel. They're not, they're the story of tragedies in Klal Yisroel, and Chassidus is not disagreeing with that. 

[Yehuda57]

A secular Zionist or Reform Jew of today is an entirely different person to someone with that label 100 years ago. Neither are the political parties. I mean, this is from today: https://crownheights.info/chabad-news/794564/meretz-activists-put-on-tefillin-after-one-of-their-owns-disgusting-act-at-chabad-tefillin-booth/

[yelped]

There was a certain outlook and inyan to stress on how holy every Jewish neshama is despite the level of observance, like the Barditchover was famous for and many others. But in practical terms how they dealt with the "movements" who sought to uproot yiddishkeit there was no difference. The Tzemach worked hand in hand with Reb Itzele Volozhiner to fight Reform in Russia, and later on the Rashab with Reb Chaim Brisker.

What Rav Avigdor Miller was discussing wasn't about the place of an individual non frum Jew has in Klal Yisroel, it was directed to the amount of legitimacy and acceptance many give to the State and it's parties as if they are part of the story of Klal Yisroel. They're not, they're the story of tragedies in Klal Yisroel, and Chassidus is not disagreeing with that.

I am going to give you a half a like for that. The first part is true, the second part is not exactly. A. That wasn't exactly what he was talking about. B. It's ridiculous to say that this is not part of Hashem's master plan. This is clearly destined to be part of our Geulah, as every part of Galus is, even though, yes, it is currently Galus. If you stick to that outlook, you are preventing those Jews from returning and, in effect, taking a part in being meakev the Geulah. If you act mature about it, and start thinking about what Hashem wants fron you right now, not 100 years ago, you can start being part of the solution, and not sticking to being part of the problem.

[imayid2]

I misread, but do you think he wouldn't have included reform Jews in that sentence?

No.
He was referring in that sentence to the leaders of the movements. He’s saying that the “greats” of those movements aren’t going to be the heroes they’re perceived as, rather they’ll be recognized as the villains.

[imayid2]

B. It's ridiculous to say that this is not part of Hashem's master plan. This is clearly destined to be part of our Geulah, as every part of Galus is, even though, yes, it is currently Galus.

No one said otherwise.
The Holocaust was part of the plan too. We can still hate the perpetrators.

[EliJelly]

I am going to give you a half a like for that. The first part is true, the second part is not exactly. A. That wasn't exactly what he was talking about. B. It's ridiculous to say that this is not part of Hashem's master plan. This is clearly destined to be part of our Geulah, as every part of Galus is, even though, yes, it is currently Galus. If you stick to that outlook, you are preventing those Jews from returning and, in effect, taking a part in being meakev the Geulah. If you act mature about it, and start thinking about what Hashem wants fron you right now, not 100 years ago, you can start being part of the solution, and not sticking to being part of the problem.

Everything is part of Hashem's master plan, the Holocaust too was part of his plan, the development the Reform and Conservative movements also, does that mean we now need to embrace that?

Anyway, we'll just agree to disagree on whether this is an אתחלתא דגאולה or part of the Tzaros Chazal were prophesying will happen בעיקבתא משיחא BEFORE the גאולה. After the Zionist movement succeeded to secularize the majority of those who remained frum after Reform era, including the vast majority of Sephardic Jews, now that the frum world has regained BH it's grip again so the ideology is no longer that harmful, does that mean we need to come to good terms and become part of it? I don't believe so. You are entitled to disagree but you don't get to claim "maturity" to your beliefs only.

Going back to the original discussion. These differing views don't split an any way along the lines of Chassidim versus Litvaks. 

[yelped]

Everything is part of Hashem's master plan, the Holocaust too was part of his plan, the development the Reform and Conservative movements also, does that mean we now need to embrace that?

Anyway, we'll just agree to disagree on whether this is an אתחלתא דגאולה or part of the Tzaros Chazal were prophesying will happen בעיקבתא משיחא BEFORE the גאולה. After the Zionist movement succeeded to secularize the majority of those who remained frum after Reform era, including the vast majority of Sephardic Jews, now that the frum world has regained BH it's grip again so the ideology is no longer that harmful, does that mean we need to come to good terms and become part of it? I don't believe so. You are entitled to disagree but you don't get to claim "maturity" to your beliefs only.

Going back to the original discussion. These differing views doesn't split an any way along the lines of Chassidim versus Litvaks.

I'm not going to pretend to know exactly what to call each stage, that is a disagreement among the greats, but in any case, effectively it is the same thing.

We have to love every Jew and move to be mekarev every Jew and stop digging our heads in the sand and pretending the state doesn't exist. We should not idolize any of the politicians either like some idolize Netanyahu and Ben Gvir, etc.

[zh cohen]

https://crownheights.info/chabad-news/794564/meretz-activists-put-on-tefillin-after-one-of-their-owns-disgusting-act-at-chabad-tefillin-booth/

The Meretz activist's response (of putting on tefillin) is a heck of a lot better than the Charedi parties who used the incident to get people to vote for them.

[imayid2]

We have to love every Jew and move to be mekarev every Jew and stop digging our heads in the sand and pretending the state doesn't exist. We should not idolize any of the politicians either like some idolize Netanyahu and Ben Gvir, etc.

I can’t imagine R. Avigdor Miller disagreeing with this.

[yelped]

I can’t imagine R. Avigdor Miller disagreeing with this.

He was neutral in terms of voting. Although, I think today he would probably endorse it as Chareidim actually have a chance to change things (assuming the Chareidi parties actually fulfill their mandate).

[AsherO]

In our circles we have clear cut proof that שלמה המלך learned Chassidus, he quotes so many פסוקים from מאמרי חסידות!

This is the classic joke about how דוד המלך didnt author Tehillim, he simply copied much of it from the Siddur.

[imayid2]

Where was the שלחן ערוך הרב written? Mainly I'd like to know when he says "במדינותינו" which country he is referring to.

[ExGingi]

Where was the שלחן ערוך הרב written? Mainly I'd like to know when he says "במדינותינו" which country he is referring to.

Little Russia, Belarus, Lithuania, Ukraine, or Western parts of Russia. (Specifically probably in Lyady)

https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9F_%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9A_%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%91

[imayid2]

Little Russia, Belarus, Lithuania, Ukraine, or Western parts of Russia. (Specifically probably in Lyady)

https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9F_%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9A_%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%91

Interesting. So he could of been in any of the above when he wrote this (ק״א סימן ק״ז) I suppose:



I was finding it puzzling to apply it to Russia.

[yelped]

Where was the שלחן ערוך הרב written? Mainly I'd like to know when he says "במדינותינו" which country he is referring to.

Just check to see if the Rav is quoting anybody else when using that term.