Author Topic: NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities  (Read 8760 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities
« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2021, 02:55:10 PM »
Where's the data to back that up?
Approximately 50% of the US is vaccinated. 100% of adults have had the option to be vaccinated. Why do you assume the majority would be pro-vaccine mandates?
Try those numbers again?
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/02/covid-vaccine-us-reaches-bidens-70percent-goal-for-adults-a-month-behind.html
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Re: NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities
« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2021, 03:03:57 PM »
Try those numbers again?
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/02/covid-vaccine-us-reaches-bidens-70percent-goal-for-adults-a-month-behind.html

Granted, my data was old.
Still, my point stands: claiming that the 'majority of the people support vaccine mandates' is completely unsubstantiated.

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Re: NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities
« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2021, 03:07:11 PM »
Granted, my data was old.
Still, my point stands: claiming that the 'majority of the people support vaccine mandates' is completely unsubstantiated.
Can't fight bad info with bad info :)
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Offline ariIs

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Re: NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities
« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2021, 03:12:19 PM »
Can't fight bad info with bad info :)

Fair enough.
Here's a recent poll result:
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/04/americans-are-sharply-divided-over-vaccine-mandates-cnbc-survey-shows.html

49% support vaccine mandates, 46% oppose.
Very far from 'noone disputes that vaccine mandates represent the will of the majority of people'.
Emergency powers given to governors, mayors etc. in this crisis have been abused, and it's time to go back to normal legislative processes that have checks and balances for a reason.

Offline Yehuda_H

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Re: NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities
« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2021, 10:57:53 AM »
Fair enough.
Here's a recent poll result:
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/04/americans-are-sharply-divided-over-vaccine-mandates-cnbc-survey-shows.html

49% support vaccine mandates, 46% oppose.
Very far from 'noone disputes that vaccine mandates represent the will of the majority of people'.
Emergency powers given to governors, mayors etc. in this crisis have been abused, and it's time to go back to normal legislative processes that have checks and balances for a reason.
Agreed. When case numbers drop and vaccinations rise, emergency powers should expire and be returned to the legislature.
Until then, I think it makes sense to continue with mask mandates (a mask hurts literally no one. If you're that 1% who physically cannot tolerate a mask then it doesn't apply to you). Vaccines also hurt nobody. The science shows a remarkable rarity of "serious adverse affects" - the blood clot issue with AZ and J&J is very rare, the heart murmur issue resolves itself in a few days and is also rare. There is no biological mechanism for adverse reactions to pop up out of the blue six months or 2 years or 5 years down the line.
When it comes down to it, with this new Delta variant even vaccinated individuals can end up hospitalized or even die; although at a significantly reduced rate

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Re: NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities
« Reply #67 on: August 09, 2021, 12:01:33 PM »
Agreed. When case numbers drop and vaccinations rise, emergency powers should expire and be returned to the legislature.
Until then, I think it makes sense to continue with mask mandates (a mask hurts literally no one. If you're that 1% who physically cannot tolerate a mask then it doesn't apply to you). Vaccines also hurt nobody. The science shows a remarkable rarity of "serious adverse affects" - the blood clot issue with AZ and J&J is very rare, the heart murmur issue resolves itself in a few days and is also rare. There is no biological mechanism for adverse reactions to pop up out of the blue six months or 2 years or 5 years down the line.
When it comes down to it, with this new Delta variant even vaccinated individuals can end up hospitalized or even die; although at a significantly reduced rate

So, to sum up:

* It's still an emergency. 1.5 years later, and will continue to be an emergency while there are still people getting sick with Covid.
Even though COVID is related to the flu or common cold, is more transmissible, and surely won't come back every winter like those. Let's keep the state of emergency going.

* Masks hurt no one, except the 1% they hurt, so everyone should mask, and the 1% will have to deal with it. (Let's not take into account, for example, developmental issues in children who have not seen anyone's face for 2 years)

* Vaccines hurt no one, except in the documented cases where they do hurt people, but that's minor - like some people having heart conditions, or maybe dying, especially among young boys (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/06/israel-reports-link-between-rare-cases-heart-inflammation-and-covid-19-vaccination). Those same kids have a lower chance of getting hurt by Covid than the common flu (https://web.archive.org/web/20210713133900/https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/07/the-kids-were-safe-from-covid-the-whole-time.html). But otherwise it hurts no one. Even though it's a brand new technology, we're sure there's no way it can have any long-term effect on people.

* Vaccinated people can still spread among the vaccinated, therefore everyone must get vaccinated, to prevent spread, so that the vaccinated will not get infected and have a chance of hospitalization and death.

Ok, makes sense to me, thanks.

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Re: NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities
« Reply #68 on: August 09, 2021, 12:25:42 PM »
So, to sum up:

* It's still an emergency. 1.5 years later, and will continue to be an emergency while there are still people getting sick with Covid.
Even though COVID is related to the flu or common cold, is more transmissible, and surely won't come back every winter like those. Let's keep the state of emergency going.
If it’s an emergency because it’s dangerous, it doesn’t matter how long it takes. Ebola Zaire is related to Ebola Reston which is not dangerous to humans at all, but Zaire kills 50% of people it infects. Such a comparison would be sheer idiocy. If it came back every winter, or every summer, or every Tuesday for that matter, it would remain an emergency.

* Masks hurt no one, except the 1% they hurt, so everyone should mask, and the 1% will have to deal with it. (Let's not take into account, for example, developmental issues in children who have not seen anyone's face for 2 years)
Right, they don’t really hurt people except a small percentage, who can be taken care of with a medical exemption, and that’s what OP said, not the words you put in his mouth. This isn’t hard to understand. There have been no documented developmental issues in children, and there have been no children who haven’t seen anyone’s face in 2 years, but regardless you can mandate/request masking while making it easier for children and others who have a harder time.

* Vaccines hurt no one, except in the documented cases where they do hurt people, but that's minor - like some people having heart conditions, or maybe dying, especially among young boys (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/06/israel-reports-link-between-rare-cases-heart-inflammation-and-covid-19-vaccination). Those same kids have a lower chance of getting hurt by Covid than the common flu (https://web.archive.org/web/20210713133900/https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/07/the-kids-were-safe-from-covid-the-whole-time.html). But otherwise it hurts no one. Even though it's a brand new technology, we're sure there's no way it can have any long-term effect on people.
As OP succinctly put it, there simply is no biological mechanism for adverse reactions to pop up out of the blue months or years later. Any reaction would be detected shortly afterwards, even if it could take some months for the data to be collated.

If there is a demographic which is deemed more susceptible to damaging side effects from the vaccine than from exposure to COVID, then they probably shouldn’t be made to vaccinate (although it would help to greatly minimize spread, which would lower more than just the hospitalizations in that demographic). Thus far, there haven’t been any such documented demographics.

Quote
Vaccines are eliminated quickly
Unlike many medications, which are taken daily, vaccines are generally one-and-done. Medicines you take every day can cause side effects that reveal themselves over time, including long-term problems as levels of the drug build up in the body over months and years.
“Vaccines are just designed to deliver a payload and then are quickly eliminated by the body,” Goepfert said. “This is particularly true of the mRNA vaccines. mRNA degrades incredibly rapidly. You wouldn’t expect any of these vaccines to have any long-term side effects. And in fact, this has never occurred with any vaccine.”
Vaccine side effects show up within weeks if at all
That is not to say that there have never been safety issues with vaccines. But in each instance, these have appeared soon after widespread use of the vaccine began.
“The side effects that we see occur early on, and that’s it,” Goepfert said. “In virtually all cases, vaccine side effects are seen within the first two months after rollout.”
The only vaccine program that might compare with the scale and speed of the COVID rollout is the original oral polio vaccine in the 1950s. When this vaccine was first introduced in the United States in 1955, it used a weakened form of the polio virus that in very rare cases — about one in 2.4 million recipients — became activated and caused paralysis. (Compare this with the 60,000 children infected with polio in the United States in 1952, and the more than 3,000 children who died from the disease in the United States that year.) Cases of vaccine-induced paralysis occurred between one and four weeks after vaccination. None of the COVID vaccines uses a weakened form of the SARS-CoV-2 virus — all train the body to recognize a piece of the virus known as the spike protein and generate antibodies that can attack the virus in case of a real infection.
In 1976, a vaccine against swine flu that was widely distributed in the United States was identified in rare cases (approximately one in 100,000) as a cause of Guillain-Barré Syndrome, in which the immune system attacks the nerves. Almost all of these cases occurred in the eight weeks after a person received the vaccine. But the flu itself also can cause Guillain-Barré Syndrome; in fact, the syndrome occurs 17 times more frequently after natural flu infection than after vaccination.

Source

* Vaccinated people can still spread among the vaccinated, therefore everyone must get vaccinated, to prevent spread, so that the vaccinated will not get infected and have a chance of hospitalization and death.

Ok, makes sense to me, thanks.
Right, everything is black and white. Either you spread or don’t and either you get infected and die or don’t get infected at all, so your question remains a strong one. Imagine a world in which some people could spread while most don’t, and less vaccinated people leads to more hospitals being overrun. (I’m being sarcastic. This isn’t an actual point you’re trying to make, is it?)
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Re: NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities
« Reply #70 on: August 09, 2021, 12:35:55 PM »
So much nuance.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

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Re: NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities
« Reply #71 on: August 09, 2021, 12:43:05 PM »
Good luck with the “vocal minority”
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/566707-nfl-tensions-rise-over-vaccine-rules
Ouch!!!

The NFL has instituted rules meant to entice players to get vaccinated, some of which have triggered a backlash.

Most notably, if a team has an outbreak of COVID-19 caused by unvaccinated players or staff, and the game has to be rescheduled, the team with the outbreak will forfeit the game. Players on both teams will have to forfeit their weekly salary if a game gets forfeited due to an outbreak.
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Re: NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities
« Reply #72 on: August 09, 2021, 12:55:31 PM »
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Re: NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities
« Reply #73 on: August 09, 2021, 01:49:47 PM »
If it’s an emergency because it’s dangerous, it doesn’t matter how long it takes. Ebola Zaire is related to Ebola Reston which is not dangerous to humans at all, but Zaire kills 50% of people it infects. Such a comparison would be sheer idiocy. If it came back every winter, or every summer, or every Tuesday for that matter, it would remain an emergency.
Right, they don’t really hurt people except a small percentage, who can be taken care of with a medical exemption, and that’s what OP said, not the words you put in his mouth. This isn’t hard to understand. There have been no documented developmental issues in children, and there have been no children who haven’t seen anyone’s face in 2 years, but regardless you can mandate/request masking while making it easier for children and others who have a harder time.
As OP succinctly put it, there simply is no biological mechanism for adverse reactions to pop up out of the blue months or years later. Any reaction would be detected shortly afterwards, even if it could take some months for the data to be collated.

If there is a demographic which is deemed more susceptible to damaging side effects from the vaccine than from exposure to COVID, then they probably shouldn’t be made to vaccinate (although it would help to greatly minimize spread, which would lower more than just the hospitalizations in that demographic). Thus far, there haven’t been any such documented demographics.

Source
Right, everything is black and white. Either you spread or don’t and either you get infected and die or don’t get infected at all, so your question remains a strong one. Imagine a world in which some people could spread while most don’t, and less vaccinated people leads to more hospitals being overrun. (I’m being sarcastic. This isn’t an actual point you’re trying to make, is it?)

1. You prove my point. If the 'danger' is constant and never ending, we cannot continue to be in a state of emergency forever just because there's danger. You have to come up with rule of law, even (especially!) under dangerous circumstances. We need to learn how to live with this, because it's not going away.

2. My close relative has a medical exemption. She was ridiculed, kicked out of stores, and generally excluded from daily life while the mask mandates were in force. Most people are not aware of it, and believe it's a made up excuse. Masking mandates exclude 1% of the people from daily life.

3. Just because the accepted theory right now is that this vaccine cannot do any harm, does not mean it cannot. I pointed to studies where people are hurt, and some people died from the vaccine in the short term.
If it produces long-term immunity, it might produce long term reactions to something else as well. Who knows if something beneficial in the body also has a spike protein? ACE2 is a similar molecular structure, and has been theorized that how the virus affects heart muscle tissue is because of it's similarity to ACE2 : https://ccforum.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13054-020-03120-0.
You cannot in good conscience tell me that the vaccine can NEVER produce long term side effects, because it has only existed in the world for 9 months.

4. I am for delaying the spread to protect vulnerable people. However, all the people who need a vaccine have access to a vaccine at this point (in the US). The vaccinated are affected by Covid in the same manner (hospitalization and death rates) as seasonal flu. We don't shut down the country for seasonal flu. Whoever does not get the vaccine (and has not gotten covid), and is in the vulnerable category should ABSOLUTELY get it. But MANDATING that people make choices that the government sees as correct has never been something we do in a western democracy.
We let people make choices when given information. This should be no different.


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Re: NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities
« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2021, 01:53:17 PM »
But MANDATING that people make choices that the government sees as correct has never been something we do in a western democracy.
I’m not going to go through all this again, and I happen to agree with you about a lot. But this is absolutely false. Of course the government mandates many things in the interest of public health. There’s an endless list, and it’s enshrined in the constitution.
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Re: NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities
« Reply #75 on: August 09, 2021, 01:57:06 PM »
1) I don’t recall hospitals overflowing from the seasonal flu &
2) I still don’t personally know anyone who’s died from the flu.

Offline Dan

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Re: NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities
« Reply #76 on: August 09, 2021, 01:59:44 PM »
1) I don’t recall hospitals overflowing from the seasonal flu &
2) I still don’t personally know anyone who’s died from the flu.
+1K. Plenty of arguments to make, but this is such a tired canard. Everyone here knows people who died from COVID. I doubt more than 1% know people who died from the flu.
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NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities
« Reply #77 on: August 09, 2021, 02:00:48 PM »
+1K. Plenty of arguments to make, but this is such a tired canard. Everyone here knows people who died from COVID. I doubt more than 1% know people who died from the flu.
We all know people who died WITH the flu ;)

(Remember this argument?)

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Re: NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities
« Reply #78 on: August 09, 2021, 02:05:39 PM »
1) I don’t recall hospitals overflowing from the seasonal flu &
2) I still don’t personally know anyone who’s died from the flu.
Same and I have been around for sometime.  :)
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Re: NYC To Require Proof Of vaccination For Indoor Activities
« Reply #79 on: August 09, 2021, 02:11:47 PM »
+1K. Plenty of arguments to make, but this is such a tired canard. Everyone here knows people who died from COVID. I doubt more than 1% know people who died from the flu.

To be clear, I'm NOT equating COVID and the flu!
I'm drawing a parallel between COVID among the vaccinated and the flu. How many people died from COVID after being vaccinated?
The hospitalization and death rate among the vaccinated is very low :
https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/covid-19-vaccine-breakthrough-cases-data-from-the-states/