Author Topic: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022  (Read 16905 times)

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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2022, 02:52:20 PM »
Wait... I also think that Lag Bomer is a time for davening...does that make me a Zionist?
According to the random man that Tzvi Yaakovson spoke to, perhaps.
Small people talk about other people.
Average people talk about things
BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.

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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2022, 03:02:04 PM »
I just cannot seem to wrap my head around this.

I fully understand not wanting to let the Zionist state control Meron. But at this point it about safety. As far as I understand there were no changes other than safety related changes.

What am I missing?
This
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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2022, 04:53:39 PM »



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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2022, 05:20:54 PM »
The chiddush of DDF is the way Dan Deals with all us crazies 🤪

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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2022, 05:26:46 PM »
Agreed

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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2022, 05:30:00 PM »
This
I understand that, and I fully understand the opposition to the law (was it passed? I didn't hear about it).

But have we not learned anything from last year?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2022, 05:35:40 PM »
This is a little less on point.
The point is that there are 2 routes to go here.

1) Let EVERYONE come, encourage people to come (with choppers - 2 were arrested today), encourage dancing in the small front entrance, make part of the Miron songs "Hatzalah bi de mener..." Fight with the police, the list goes on and on. (The Eida is making a protest against "Taarivis" and in the same time is encouraging everyone to go???)

2) Agree that major reforms/improvements need to be made and work something out together. Safety first

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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2022, 05:36:52 PM »
I understand that, and I fully understand the opposition to the law (was it passed? I didn't hear about it).

But have we not learned anything from last year?

https://www.bhol.co.il/news/1386250

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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2022, 05:39:52 PM »
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 05:43:59 PM by VacationLover »

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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2022, 05:47:01 PM »
There are thousands, and maybe tens of thousands, of people that used to go every year and want to go again but don't have a ticket (Tickets were capped at 15k and sold out almost immediately). What do they expect will happen?!

After last year most Charedim agreed to make changes, but it's 13 months later, and that's all they could come up with?

And let's be clear, most of those who will fight it in the next few days - and that's what will unfortunately happen - were not against safety improvements!

I'm not talking about the small % of extremists who will not cooperate with anything related to their local government. If things had been done the right way, over 90% would cooperate, and the extremists would remain powerless.

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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2022, 05:48:01 PM »
I understand that, and I fully understand the opposition to the law (was it passed? I didn't hear about it).

But have we not learned anything from last year?
Not sure what law you are referring to.

Unfortunately, in this case there is no we. I'm not planning on going I think it will at best be a nasty mess. The same people who were in charge for the tragedy last year are still in charge. The level of competence and seichel in the preparations and planning of this year rivals the lows of governments dealing with covid. I don't like pulling this line, unfortunately this time it's true. If this wasn't charedim there is no way it would be done like this. The governments produced their own site for Mechiras Chametz. Yet they give this to an external vendor to distribute? I heard from a few places that there were recently many attempts to mediate between the organizers and representatives of many frum communities. For this not to have happened 11 months ago at the governments behest is a disgrace.
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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2022, 05:58:04 PM »
There are thousands, and maybe tens of thousands, of people that used to go every year and want to go again but don't have a ticket (Tickets were capped at 15k and sold out almost immediately). What do they expect will happen?!

After last year most Charedim agreed to make changes, but it's 13 months later, and that's all they could come up with?

And let's be clear, most of those who will fight it in the next few days - and that's what will unfortunately happen - were not against safety improvements!

I'm not talking about the small % of extremists who will not cooperate with anything related to their local government. If things had been done the right way, over 90% would cooperate, and the extremists would remain powerless.
The general mindset among Kanuim: everything should be the same as previous years. If they can somehow enhance safety than good, but if in return they need to move away music etc. They don't want any changes.

Which safety improvements would suffice and everyone would agree and comply with?

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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2022, 06:04:30 PM »
The general mindset among Kanuim: everything should be the same as previous years. If they can somehow enhance safety than good, but if in return they need to move away music etc. They don't want any changes.

Which safety improvements would suffice and everyone would agree and comply with?

Having multiple Hadlakos makes both more sense and is safer because not everyone needs to be in Meron at one time.

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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2022, 06:05:26 PM »
There are thousands, and maybe tens of thousands, of people that used to go every year and want to go again but don't have a ticket (Tickets were capped at 15k and sold out almost immediately). What do they expect will happen?!

I would refer them to @Dan's favorite maamar. In the spirit of Rashbi and R' Akiva, I think putting oneself aside is appropriate.

Also, IINM it's 15k per 4 hour period.

After last year most Charedim agreed to make changes, but it's 13 months later, and that's all they could come up with?

And let's be clear, most of those who will fight it in the next few days - and that's what will unfortunately happen - were not against safety improvements!

Everyone "agreed to make changes" and are "not against safety improvements", but did anyone put even 1/10th of the energy and efforts which are currently being used to subvert the restrictions into actually making safety changes? Talk is cheap!!!!


I'm not talking about the small % of extremists who will not cooperate with anything related to their local government. If things had been done the right way, over 90% would cooperate, and the extremists would remain powerless.

Were the powers of inertia just too strong?

There were fights about the inquiry commission. It seemed like the inquiry commission was going nice and fair, but unfortunately the judge that headed it died prematurely. Did that stop everything at it's tracks?

I am not throwing the responsibility here onto Eida Hachareidis, but they, for example know how to run large operations, as do several other groups that are independent from the state. I am not so sure that if they would come up with an alternative safety plan which they would run, it wouldn't be some kind of an acceptable compromise even to the zionist authorities.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2022, 06:08:21 PM »
Not sure what law you are referring to.


The Provisions of the “Meron Law”


I could write at much greater length about the political situation, but let me move on to another topic: Lag Ba’omer in Meron. The Minister of Religious Affairs, who is viewed as a bitter enemy of the religious public, is also responsible for overseeing the hillula in Meron this year, and he has prepared a bill for the Knesset to pass for his decisions to be implemented. In many cases, it is necessary for a bill to be passed by the Knesset in order for various measures to be taken. For instance, during the period of the coronavirus, the police were authorized to issue fines for violations of the pandemic regulations only after the Ministerial Committee for Legislation had approved the decision.

I won’t quote the entire text of the draft of Minister Kahana’s bill, but I will share one particular excerpt with you: the section that deals with punitive fines. The bill states that in order to enforce its provisions, police officers will be granted the authority to take any of the following steps: “1. To prevent a person or car from entering the area of Meron if his presence in the area will be contrary to the regulations. 2. To remove a person, car, or object from Meron whose presence is in violation of the provisions cited above. 3. To order the termination of a bonfire in Meron that was organized in violation of the provisions cited above. 4. To order the termination of any other event in Meron that is organized in violation of the regulations. 5. If a person refuses to comply with an order or demand of a police officer, the officer will be authorized to prevent his entry to Meron or to remove him from the area in spite of his refusal, and even to use reasonable force for that purpose. 6. If a person refuses to comply with the orders of a police officer to terminate a bonfire or any other event, the officer will be permitted to use all necessary means to end the event, even employing reasonable force when necessary under the circumstances.” The bill then specifies that the penalty for a violation of any of its provisions will be a monetary fine.

The prohibitions are fairly prosaic—being present in Meron without the authorization specified by the bill or holding a bonfire or some other event in violation of the rules. And the fine for a violation will be 500 shekels. This may not be a very steep fine, but it is certainly aggravating. In any event, if the Knesset does not approve this bill, then it will be impossible to implement any of these decisions.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #55 on: May 17, 2022, 06:10:05 PM »


I am not so sure that if they would come up with an alternative safety plan which they would run, it wouldn't be some kind of an acceptable compromise even to the zionist authorities.
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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2022, 06:19:55 PM »
There were fights about the inquiry commission. It seemed like the inquiry commission was going nice and fair, but unfortunately the judge that headed it died prematurely. Did that stop everything at it's tracks?

The talk in certain circles is that if you start up with Meron that is what happens. Miriam Naor who headed the commission died suddenly. Matan Kahana had to leave his post in order to stop the coalition falling. And this man who was also allegedly involved in the planning of Meron (I can't find anything to back this up) suddenly died in Meron. https://time.news/tragedy-in-meron-adviser-to-the-minister-of-internal-security-on-fire-affairs-dies/

Maybe @JlmBoi can shed light on this.

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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #57 on: May 17, 2022, 06:25:41 PM »
I would refer them to @Dan's favorite maamar. In the spirit of Rashbi and R' Akiva, I think putting oneself aside is appropriate.


We're not debating what would've been best. We're in a reality and we have to face it. Reality is that if you close Miron on this day there will be a revolt. And that's what they are doing here. They effectively closed Miron for thousands of yearly visitors.

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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #58 on: May 17, 2022, 06:32:50 PM »
The talk in certain circles is that if you start up with Meron that is what happens. Miriam Naor who headed the commission died suddenly. Matan Kahana had to leave his post in order to stop the coalition falling. And this man who was also allegedly involved in the planning of Meron (I can't find anything to back this up) suddenly died in Meron. https://time.news/tragedy-in-meron-adviser-to-the-minister-of-internal-security-on-fire-affairs-dies/

Maybe @JlmBoi can shed light on this.
I hope I don't come accross as a kook bc thats what I think of this kind of theory. I think wanting to do things safely is a noble cause and I'm definitely not going to judge the purity of intentions of peope who are no longer with us.

I think there should have been a mesudar non political representation of Kehilos re meron but that's pipe dream just like the government taking it seriously is. I just didn't think it would be this bad (kind of like by covid...).
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Re: Lag Baomer in Meron 2022
« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2022, 07:13:58 PM »
Having multiple Hadlakos makes both more sense and is safer because not everyone needs to be in Meron at one time.
It also causes migration between the hadlakos and more people simply moving all around in all directions.
Feelings don't care about your facts