Author Topic: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim  (Read 31675 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #100 on: July 27, 2022, 08:26:56 AM »

"The innkeeper of yesteryear was more knowledgeable than the gedolim of today"

- every mesivta rebbe
Not something I ever heard. Maybe about their emunah and bitachon, but no way about knowledge.
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Offline Something Fishy

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #101 on: July 27, 2022, 08:33:41 AM »
What’s really puzzling is that there have got to be dozens of threads about the food kashrus standards
down to the smallest detail of which Mehadrin WAJ uses. Just about every place under discussion is probably kosher on at least a deoraysah level. Yet there are almost no discussion of the kashrus shemiras einayim wise of various exotic destinations. If there was a hechsher for shemiras ainayim staying in a beachfront resort in the Bahamas would probably be certified by Rabbi Lisa Malik’s Temple Beth Ahm Hechsher at best. I guess we all have some level of cognitive dissonance.

Separate discussion and thread, please.
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Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #102 on: July 27, 2022, 08:47:55 AM »
regarding Eid Echad Neeman, there is a takana of the Vaad HaArbah Aratzos not to BUY from anyone who does not have a Hechsher/Haskama from a recognized Rav/Av Beis Din
I wish i would remember the exact Mare Makom, I saw it somewhere in Pischei Teshuvos.
I have no idea if this takana is relevant to Lubavitchers, or if they have a different mehalach

Offline imayid2

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #103 on: July 27, 2022, 08:50:21 AM »
regarding Eid Echad Neeman, there is a takana of the Vaad HaArbah Aratzos not to BUY from anyone who does not have a Hechsher/Haskama from a recognized Rav/Av Beis Din
I wish i would remember the exact Mare Makom, I saw it somewhere in Pischei Teshuvos.
I have no idea if this takana is relevant to Lubavitchers, or if they have a different mehalach
I resume it’s the same takana referenced here
Although this would be where the tvuos shor would come into play.

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #104 on: July 27, 2022, 08:58:31 AM »
possibly. may be a different one.
Not sure where the tvuos shor lived.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #105 on: July 27, 2022, 09:12:57 AM »
Again, unless I'm reading it wrong, the tvuas shor is talking about communities where there are hechsherim in place and an establishment NOT having a hechsher is problematic. This is not the case for Chabad Houses in remote locations

Offline ushdadude

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #106 on: July 27, 2022, 09:15:01 AM »
It’s practically a self-hechsher, not like the Kashrus agencies have available local mashgichim. Try and schmooze the guy up or ask what his standards are.

If someone has any interesting litmus test for inferring whether corners are cut, I’m curious to hear this as well.
is that the same as a chabad house? did anyone research this one specifically?

Offline jye

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #107 on: July 27, 2022, 09:17:37 AM »
Separate discussion and thread, please.
Probably little interest, but done.

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #108 on: July 27, 2022, 09:18:50 AM »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #109 on: July 27, 2022, 10:23:35 AM »
Again, unless I'm reading it wrong, the tvuas shor is talking about communities where there are hechsherim in place and an establishment NOT having a hechsher is problematic. This is not the case for Chabad Houses in remote locations
You seem to be saying that only where there is a community requirement to have hechsherim the tvuas shor is saying not to rely on someone you don’t know to purchase from them.
That is incorrect.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #110 on: July 27, 2022, 10:50:39 AM »
This is not the case for Chabad Houses in remote locations
It should be clarified that the difference between eating in someone’s house and purchasing from him is explicit in the Rema (and many others)  y’d 119. When purchasing food there is a higher requirement called מוחזק בכשרות. The question is what that means and how to ascertain if a Chabad house you never heard of falls into that category.
While this remains a valid point:
Let's take a step back and think about what the question is: Can I trust the kashrus of someone who uprooted themselves from life in a frum environment and sacrifices a heck of a lot for the sole purpose of enabling as many Jews as possible to fulfill more mitzvos like kashrus?

Now, let's look at the SHluchim in live in remote places where kosher meat, chalav yisroel dairy, and all the everyday groceries with hechsherim we take for granted are not available. What do they eat themselves? My in-laws who live in Nebraska love to joke about the most frequent question they get from frum people, "what do you do for meat?"

They don't eat meat. They don't have cheese. They don't have milk. They have massive chest freezers where they store as much as they can, but they can go for extended periods of time without much of these things. Many say the R' Moshe's heter for CS applies ONLY in cases like Shluchim where CY is not available, yet even there, Shluchim will only eat CY. In many places meat IS available, but it doesn't meet (sorrynotsorry) the standards the shluchim keep, even though most frum communities would eat it without questioning, the Shluchim go without.

So is trusting a shliach like trusting any frum  "stranger"? Sure, if every frum stranger is moser nefesh daily for mitzvos in general and kashrus quite specifically.
So does this:
So you vouched for you in-laws, are you vouching for every shliach under the Chabad umbrella?

I don't see how anyone can do that without  knowing them all.

Simplest things to do it just ask if anyone knows this shliach etc.

(But I do like your logic of it and personally it'd work for me, but I understand why someone not in the know would be concerned.)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 12:10:39 PM by imayid2 »

Offline dm123

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #111 on: July 27, 2022, 01:02:45 PM »
It should be clarified that the difference between eating in someone’s house and purchasing from him is explicit in the Rema (and many others)  y’d 119. When purchasing food there is a higher requirement called מוחזק בכשרות. The question is what that means and how to ascertain if a Chabad house you never heard of falls into that category.
While this remains a valid point:So does this:

Heard once that Lubavitchers get smicha, or the Rebbe pushed them all to, or something like that. Assuming shluchim do all get smicha (or the ones that do at least) would that affect their מוחזק בכשרות status? Or at least give them ne'emanus to tell you if something may be an issue? As well Chochmas Adam seems to apply to people living in the middle of nowhere with no easy reference, however shluchim even in yehupitz should have lots of reference points... Perhaps ties into my earlier point about smicha, you can ask where he got smicha from and then use that as a reference?

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #112 on: July 27, 2022, 05:07:22 PM »
IMHO you can have a Shabbos meal at someone’s house and decline the cholent without it being offensive.

OK. Let's see you declining cholent in my house!
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #113 on: July 27, 2022, 05:11:35 PM »
OK. Let's see you declining cholent in my house!

However offensive it might be to decline cholent, serving parev cholent is a declaration of war as per Section III of the Hague Convention of 1907 and the Kellogg–Briand Pact of 1928.

Offline Dan

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #114 on: July 27, 2022, 05:14:15 PM »
Heard once that Lubavitchers get smicha, or the Rebbe pushed them all to, or something like that. Assuming shluchim do all get smicha (or the ones that do at least) would that affect their מוחזק בכשרות status? Or at least give them ne'emanus to tell you if something may be an issue? As well Chochmas Adam seems to apply to people living in the middle of nowhere with no easy reference, however shluchim even in yehupitz should have lots of reference points... Perhaps ties into my earlier point about smicha, you can ask where he got smicha from and then use that as a reference?
I'd guess that greater than 99% of shluchim have Smicha. If it's food being served in their house or Chabad House, I'd eat without asking questions.

If it's a restaurant under their hechsher, I might ask if they eat there themselves depending on the situation.
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #115 on: July 27, 2022, 05:17:38 PM »
I'd guess that greater than 99% of shluchim have Smicha. If it's food being served in their house or Chabad House, I'd eat without asking questions.

If it's a restaurant under their hechsher, I might ask if they eat there themselves depending on the situation.

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Offline jj1000

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #116 on: July 27, 2022, 05:19:37 PM »
Just going to leave THIS HERE.

First sentence should clear up a lot of this threads questions.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #117 on: July 27, 2022, 05:26:51 PM »
If it's a restaurant under their hechsher, I might ask if they eat there themselves depending on the situation.
If you can find out they eat there themselves, that would pretty much be a slam dunk. You would no longer need the מוחזק בכשרות level and you would be back at the simple עד אחד נאמן באיסורין.
Though for someone who has specific standards that still might not be enough.

Offline aygart

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #118 on: July 27, 2022, 05:30:59 PM »
Heard once that Lubavitchers get smicha, or the Rebbe pushed them all to, or something like that. Assuming shluchim do all get smicha (or the ones that do at least) would that affect their מוחזק בכשרות status? Or at least give them ne'emanus to tell you if something may be an issue? As well Chochmas Adam seems to apply to people living in the middle of nowhere with no easy reference, however shluchim even in yehupitz should have lots of reference points... Perhaps ties into my earlier point about smicha, you can ask where he got smicha from and then use that as a reference?
Smicha in and of itself tells you very little. What would you learn from a smicha from YCT? JTS? The point about reference points is a good one and it is a very good idea to ask around. There are a number of people on DDF who are likely to be able to help. I have asked about chabad houses as recently as this week.
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Offline biobook

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Re: Kashrus of Chabad Shluchim
« Reply #119 on: July 27, 2022, 10:05:47 PM »
My in-laws who live in Nebraska love to joke about the most frequent question they get from frum people, "what do you do for meat?"

They don't eat meat.
However offensive it might be to decline cholent, serving parev cholent is a declaration of war as per Section III of the Hague Convention of 1907 and the Kellogg–Briand Pact of 1928.
@Yehuda57 Is your MIL the SuperRebbetzin who makes this pareve cholent?  The site's been revamped, but when I first found the recipe, it said she was from Nebraska.
https://www.allrecipes.com/cook/1899320?content=recipes