Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 141812 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2012, 11:06:24 PM »
im sorry for touching a raw nerve but chabad prides itself for being openminded and you should see the oppinion that the majority of torah jews hold so may i ask why on the topic that is the core of chabad are you so closeminded  have you ever serieously considered the logic of those who disagree whith you and if you did i will respect that as you guys (i mean the main contributors to this site and for that i thank you)are clearly very intelligent.

The only one being close-minded here is you.

What do you want me to say?  That the Rabbe can't possibly be mashiach? That Rav, the Rashbi, the Midrash/B"R, the Sdei Chemed, and the Abarbenel among many others were heretical and modern anti-chabad spewing rabbis know better. 

Or should Chabad have stopped being makarev yidden and putting tefilin on yidden back in the 50's because at the time most torah jews were aghast at doing so and denouncing it?  Never mind that they all came around after to claim they themselves started the movement.

Or should Chasidism itself have admitted to being wrong back from the times of the Baal Shem Tov and onward when misnagdim were ready to physically harm, mosar to the government, and even kill chassidim, lest their ways teach all jews to be "heretical?"

This is nothing but a long standing tradition of anti-chasidic/chabad rhetoric that has been around for hundreds of years and has no basis in halacha.

We're going in circles here.  Nobody is going to convince anybody out of what they believe. I don't think I have much else to add to this subject.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 11:09:55 PM by Dan »
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Offline asd

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2012, 11:10:24 PM »
you didnt answer the question have you seriously  considered the shita orf the majority of the frum world or not ?

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2012, 11:18:43 PM »
you didnt answer the question have you seriously  considered the shita orf the majority of the frum world or not ?
of course he has. Hence quoting many famous jewish authorities who's view is inline with the chabad belief. The question is if you have done research or your blindly following your feelings. (not to mention this is no where in the vicinity of core chabad beliefs. You are clearly the misinformed one here)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 11:23:37 PM by jj1000 »
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Offline arie

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2012, 11:20:17 PM »
you didnt answer the question have you seriously  considered the shita orf the majority of the frum world or not ?
He has no obligation to 'seriously consider' other shita's. Chabad has beed been around for some time already and had great men in charge. As long as he is following his tradition that he was brought up in and he is following the Shulchan Aruch, he doesn't have to seriously consider anything else, the same way you dont have to seriously consider becoming a Satmar, Belz Chosid, or a Mizrachi.

Offline asd

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #64 on: February 06, 2012, 11:23:15 PM »
there has never been in history a movement like chabbad i dont have to research i have history and mesorah on my side you are treading on dangerous waters it is your obligation to be certian you arent being brainwashed

Offline Avid Reader

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #65 on: February 06, 2012, 11:23:28 PM »
For those interested in an Halachick opinion supporting the idea of the Rebbe being Moshiach after he was niftar, see attched letter from Rabbi Hirshprung A"H, Rav of Montreal.


gif image hosting


« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 11:33:34 PM by Avid Reader »

Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #66 on: February 06, 2012, 11:31:22 PM »
asd your posts remind me of this:

(in other words if you add some punctuation I might understand what you're saying)

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #67 on: February 06, 2012, 11:35:01 PM »
jewda, that's the most vile and hateful link I've ever seen posted on DDF, and frankly it deserves an apology.

If we can't have this conversation with respect and ahavas yisroel I will lock this up for good and add it to the banned topics list.  As for me I believe I've already said all I need to say and have nothing further to add other than everyone will believe exactly what they have already been programmed to believe.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2012, 11:41:32 PM »
There was an article written about 15 years ago by R' Immanual Schochet (who would not be considered "messianist" by any stretch of the imagination) defending the "messianists" against claims that it's avodah zarah...
One memory worth posting.

I was in Ohr Elchonon some 11 years ago when Immanuel's brother "The Rosh" (who is also a massive anti-mishichist) cursed out his brother in a speech for writing that the belief the mashiach can come from the dead doesn't fall outside the realm or orthodox judaism, when in fact that belief has more than enough valid sources to be considered normative orthodox judaism.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Cbs

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2012, 11:50:32 PM »
you didnt answer the question have you seriously  considered the shita orf the majority of the frum world or not ?
do u ever consider other worldly cultures and ways of life? no? why not?
my point is that you were brought up a certain way and Chabad was brought up a certain way. to say that someone else should consider your way is like - halevai a christian saying you should consider the way of J - (not exactly but you get my point)
and i never try convincing anyone that they should become Chabad in way shape or form. i think bottom line is that its the way you were brought up, and no-one can get convinced otherwise unless they're searching for something else. so no use in arguing about this anymore. it is what it is.
and btw i edited my previous big post so because i forgot to mention something u said - look for the caps edit

as for Jewda: i see now that dan posted but i wanted to say the exact same thing, and just let you now that out off all the curses the Rebbe got in public etc... the Rebbe never ever said a bad word about him, and he even blessed him with long life! (he lived till 107). and for someone - especially a big guy like him that has many followers - to say such a thing in public against another jew, especially a big Rebbe that is world renowned and respected by majority of the world, i call such a person a Rashah. especially when he considered himself a big gadol.

Offline Side incomer

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2012, 11:59:58 PM »
This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.
+1

Nobody would consider "belz" as a meshichist chasidis. I heard once from the Belze Rebbe, by a yahrteit tish of the prebious rebber R' Aron TZ"L:
"we all believe that the uncle (R' Aron) was meshiach, and if he wasn't, he had the ability to be".
I learned from that, that actually every chasid should think on his Rebbe, that he is Meshiach, or at least have the ability of being Mashiach.
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Offline Avid Reader

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2012, 12:02:11 AM »
btw, I don't know if anybody else here remembers this, but there was an article written about 15 years ago by R' Immanual Schochet (who would not be considered "messianist" by any stretch of the imagination) defending the "messianists" against claims that it's avodah zarah...

One memory worth posting.

I was in Ohr Elchonon some 11 years ago when Immanuel's brother "The Rosh" (who is also a massive anti-mishichist) cursed out his brother in a speech for writing that the belief the mashiach can come from the dead doesn't fall outside the realm or orthodox judaism, when in fact that belief has more than enough valid sources to be considered normative orthodox judaism.


I believe this is the article by Schochet you're both referring to: http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n094.shtml#07


Offline asd

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2012, 12:03:16 AM »
were the gedolim who called out shabtai tzvi also reshoim if thats what he believed his chiyuv was to state so publicly.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2012, 12:03:30 AM »
+1

Nobody would consider "belz" as a meshichist chasidis. I heard once from the Belze Rebbe, by a yahrteit tish of the prebious rebber R' Aron TZ"L:
"we all believe that the uncle (R' Aron) was meshiach, and if he wasn't, he had the ability to be".
I learned from that, that actually every chasid should think on his Rebbe, that he is Meshiach, or at least have the ability of being Mashiach.
Thank you for the confirmation.  As I thought, the difference is very minute-just a question of how the belief is publicized.
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Offline asd

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2012, 12:06:31 AM »
the abilty to be is something all frum yidden believe about all gedolim