Messianism among Lubavitch

[AsherO]

I assume you are agreeing with my line of logic?

What exactly am I agreeing to?

[Cbs]

I didn't realize you (and your other family members we know) are such baalei yichus

+1. thats big news to me 2

[whYME]

you know what is amazing chabbad chassidim spend a tremendous amount of time thinking about this topic and we just think about it in passing and they still cant win the argument (but their p.r. is like a fortune 500 company)

when a dog barks and you don't answer does that mean you can't win the argument?

You need to provide some argument of substance if you want to say we can't win the argument.

[jj1000]

What exactly am I agreeing to?

"you know what is amazing chabbad chassidim spend a tremendous amount of time thinking about this topic and we just think about it in passing and they still cant win the argument (but their p.r. is like a fortune 500 company)"
I actually find it amazing that Jews claim to have so many brilliant scholars yet they still have not been able to disprove Christianity.   
Meaning that the argument never started when arguing with a blind opponent. Assuming that was what you were referring to when you said "For the same reason G-d's existence can't be proven beyond doubt: it would preclude b'chira." In other words the argument is futile? correct me if I am wrong.

[aussiebochur]

This thread seems to lead nowhere.

@ avid: I found a link to apply for chabad online, and was rejected...

They also want a ssn ??!

Error message was probably more like, "Try again during sefirah".

[SuperFlyer]

@ozi: like there is: what's first the chicken or the egg, there is: what was first, chabad or the beard...

[Avid Reader]

@SF, I have a form you fill out that should get you elite status, but be warned, these can't be faked so it won't be easy. You gotta actualy do the challange.

[dirah]

SUMMARY:
With regards to those who attack Meshichist beliefs of Chabad as CLEARLY heretical and outside the pale of Yiddishkeit; when they are asked to provide sources to support their incendiary claims, they can't point to anything conclusive in Gemoro, Rishonim or Achronim.
They rely on "what rabbi so-and-so told me".
When the defendants are asked for sources, they have many conclusive ones.
This thread might go on and on and on, but one thing I assure you: This little fact will not change.
It hasn't changed in the eighteen years since Gimmel Tammuz, and it is not going to change on DDF.

To clarify: I don't mind that there are those who disagree with Chabad about the identity of Moshiach. In fact, I don't expect it to be otherwise. I dare say that any sane Lubavitcher would not expect otherwise.
But it is extraordinarily presumptuous, (for a lack of more appropriate words that are still polite,) to label a whole segment of Frum Jewry as heretics, based on feelings which have no foundation.

[dirah]

I am a direct descendant of the Abarbanel hence my mesorah is that moshiach can come from the dead. 

Wow, that makes us tenth cousins, or something.
Who would have thought that I would discover Mishpocha on DDF!

[Avid Reader]

I didn't realize you (and your other family members we know) are such baalei yichus

+1, nice surprise.

[shmuelb]

I have many friends who are Chabad, meshichists and non and I have had great Chabad experiences.

Without getting into the question of if Moshiach could come from the deceased, I present the view of many in the non-Chabad world.

There is a famous vort from a Godol of the last Dor, he asked how can Moshiach come in this dor? If he has a knitted Kippa, the Charedi will not accept him, if he has a down-hat, the Chassidim won't accept him etc. He explained from Esther - ain Esther magedes moladta... that everyone thought she was from their nation (Gemara). So too, he explained, that when Moshiach will come, everyone will accept him, everyone will connect to him and respect him.

If you are Chabad, you can claim that all religous Jews held of the Rebbe as a Moshiach or you can say that those who don't are not Jews, they don't count. I will not answer you either way, I think the vort stands. Maybe the Rebbe was a great man, but non-Chabad members will say that the reality is, he was not accepted by most of the dor. That is one simple reason why they do not consider him to BE Moshiach. If he comes back then maybe everyone will think he is Moshiach but the same can be said for any Gadol or lehavdil elef havdalos, Bob. Until that happens ...

[moish]

He was the gadol hador. Ki dvar hashem bazah. I'm mocheh. You were michalel shem shamayim brabim.

+1

the Rebbe never ever said a bad word about him,

thats simply not true

[moish]

Not even remotely comparable.  You are further displaying your ignorance.
The problem with shabsai tzvi and his followers who violated mitzvahs and ate on tisha b'av for example is the same problem we have with yashka as is tackled by R' Schochet:

   There is not a single case of any Meshichists abrogating or changing a
   single mitzvah or aspect of Halachah! In fact, they continuously urge
   greater and more punctilious observance of Torah and mitzvot to hasten
   the redemption.

also not true, see here http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=23541
and here http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2010/01/are-all-lubavitchers-messianic.html

[Lamdan]

For the same reason G-d's existence can't be proven beyond doubt: it would preclude b'chira.

Look in Kovetz Maamarim from R' Elchonon Wasserman Hy''d, Article titled "B'Inyan Emunah", that intellectually it can be proven beyond a doubt, bechirah kicks in by way of the taavos leading the mind astray, but it can be proven beyond a doubt to the pure intellectual mind, ayin sham vetimtzeh nachas.

[AsherO]

Look in Kovetz Maamarim from R' Elchonon Wasserman Hy''d, Article titled "B'Inyan Emunah", that intellectually it can be proven beyond a doubt, bechirah kicks in by way of the taavos leading the mind astray, but it can be proven beyond a doubt to the pure intellectual mind, ayin sham vetimtzeh nachas.

Sorry, too many flaws in the logic (at least as presented here) for me to accept that.

I don't mean any disrespect to R' Wasserman Tatzal, but the following remains in question:

1. What happens before the first taavah a person chooses, do they then have clarity/purity? If yes, how could they make that first wrong choice and choose the taava?
2. What's the halachic proof (he cites a midrash), why don't the Rambam or any of the Jewish philosophers (chokrim) present it this way?
3. The midrash is referring to the almighty as the creator of the world, but what about the vastness of Hashem that transcends that, how can we prove that part?
4. The source midrash makes no mention of taavos, or the reason why the person wouldn't have seen it on his own, or what R' Akiva would indeed accomplish by telling him this if his intellectual clarity was indeed compromised.

This is surely not the classical approach to b'chira, but it's a nice perspective nevertheless, ושבעים פנים לתורה.

[Dan]

  also not true, see here http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=23541
and here http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2010/01/are-all-lubavitchers-messianic.html

Sorry, but those aren't meshchists or lubavitchers.  They are mental hospital patients. 
You can find crazy people in any sect and it proves nothing at all.

The blogger tries to equate the insane actions of a few people to castigate tens of thousands of mainstream lubavitchers because most of us believe that is is possible (and of course possible otherwise) that the Rebbe can be moshiach.
Again, totally ignoring numerous sources that such a thing is in the realm of possibility.

[Dan]

I have many friends who are Chabad, meshichists and non and I have had great Chabad experiences.

Without getting into the question of if Moshiach could come from the deceased, I present the view of many in the non-Chabad world.

There is a famous vort from a Godol of the last Dor, he asked how can Moshiach come in this dor? If he has a knitted Kippa, the Charedi will not accept him, if he has a down-hat, the Chassidim won't accept him etc. He explained from Esther - ain Esther magedes moladta... that everyone thought she was from their nation (Gemara). So too, he explained, that when Moshiach will come, everyone will accept him, everyone will connect to him and respect him.

If you are Chabad, you can claim that all religous Jews held of the Rebbe as a Moshiach or you can say that those who don't are not Jews, they don't count. I will not answer you either way, I think the vort stands. Maybe the Rebbe was a great man, but non-Chabad members will say that the reality is, he was not accepted by most of the dor. That is one simple reason why they do not consider him to BE Moshiach. If he comes back then maybe everyone will think he is Moshiach but the same can be said for any Gadol or lehavdil elef havdalos, Bob. Until that happens ...

I'm not sure what your point is. The vort is silly quite frankly.

Most people acknowledge that the Rebbe was a great man, an ohev yisroel, and a scholar.

People go crazy that lubavitchers believe that the Rebbe could be moshiach, but quite frankly 99.9% of lubavitchers would be just fine if someone else turned out to me moshiach, just like 99.9% of misnagdim would accept the Rebbe if he appeared today and was revealed to be moshiach.

The real bottom line is who cares what everyone else thinks and why are rabbis cursing out lubavitchers for their thoughts?  There is plenty of basis in torah for thoughts that someone could be moshiach, thus the cursing out is uncalled for.
The 2nd B"H was destroyed from sinas chinam.  How about a little bit of Ahavas Chinum as the Rebbe often called for, and surely we will merit to see moshiach, whomever he may be, as soon as today!

[JEWDA]

I'm not sure what your point is. The vort is silly quite frankly.

Most people acknowledge that the Rebbe was a great man, an ohev yisroel, and a scholar.

People go crazy that lubavitchers believe that the Rebbe could be moshiach, but quite frankly 99.9% of lubavitchers would be just fine if someone else turned out to me moshiach, just like 99.9% of misnagdim would accept the Rebbe if he appeared today and was revealed to be moshiach.

Even if R' Shach ZATZAL will be moshiach?

[moish]

Sorry, but those aren't meshchists or lubavitchers.  They are mental hospital patients. 
You can find crazy people in any sect and it proves nothing at all.

so not only from tsfat? let the list begin. the crownheights link also mentions a woman in 770 who does this on a regular basis

The blogger tries to equate the insane actions of a few people to castigate tens of thousands of mainstream lubavitchers because most of us believe that is is possible (and of course possible otherwise) that the Rebbe can be moshiach.
Again, totally ignoring numerous sources that such a thing is in the realm of possibility.

i only linked the blogger to show that the very person who put them in cherem, himself signed a 'psak din' that the rebbe IS moshiach

[Dan]

Even if R' Shach ZATZAL will be moshiach?

If he gathers all the jews in Israel and performs the signs that he is moshiach then so be it.
I would then ask Eliyahu how could a man who had so much sinas chinum turn out to be moshiach, but to think that would hinder his acceptance is foolhardy.