Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 205383 times)

Offline AsherO

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #140 on: February 07, 2012, 01:48:00 PM »
thats completely missing the point. lets say he was a kohen, would chabad accept him? im sure some would (like dan) but for sure many wont, like cbs

It's not. If he's a kohen then he definitely isn't from the descendants of King David, in which case the discussion is moot. Again:

Now that's just ignorance...

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #141 on: February 07, 2012, 01:49:17 PM »
Amazing poem please read.

"Mashiach's Hat"

T'was the night of the geulah, and in every single shteibel, sounds of Torah could be heard, coming from every kind of Yeidel.

This one in English, some in Hebrew, some in Yiddish, some saying pshat, and some saying chiddush.

And up in shomayim, the Aibishter decreed, "The time has come for My children to be freed.

Rouse the Mashiach from his heavenly berth, have him get in his chariot and head down to Earth."

The Moshiach got dressed, and with a heart full of glee, went down to the Earth, and entered the first shteibel he did see.

"I'm the Moshiach, Hashem has heard your plea, your geulah has come, it is time to go free!"

They all stopped their learning, this was quite a surprise, And they looked at him carefully with piercing sharp eyes.

"He's not the Mashiach!" said one with a grin, "Just look at his hat, at the pinches and brim!"

"That's right!", cried another with a grimace and a frown, "Whoever heard of Mashiach with a brim that is down?!"

"Well", thought Mashiach, "If that is the rule, I'll turn my brim up before I go to the next shule!"

So he walked on right over to the next shule in town, confident to be accepted since his brim was no longer down.

"I'm the Mashiach!", he cried as he began to enter. But the Jews there wanted to know first, if he was left, right, or center.

"Your clothes are so black!" they cried out in a fright. "You can't be Mashiach --you're much too far right!

If you want to be Mashiach, you must be properly outfitted." So they replaced his black hat with a kipa that was knitted.

Wearing his new kipa, Mashiach went out and he said, "No difference to me what I wear on my head."

So he went to the next shule, for his mission was dear, But he was getting a bit frustrated with the Yidden down here.

"I'm the Mashiach!" he cried, and they all stopped to stare. And a complete eerie stillness filled up the air.

"You're the Mashiach?! Just imagine that. Whoever heard of Mashiach without a black hat?!"

"But I do have a hat!" the Mashiach then said. So he pulled it right out and plunked it down on his head.

Then the Shule started laughing, and one said, "Where's your kop? You can't have Mashiach with a brim that is up!

If you want to be Mashiach, and be accepted in this town, put some pinches in your hat, and turn that brim down!"

Mashiach walked out and said, "I guess my time hasn't really come, I'll just have to return to where I came from.

So he went to his chariot, but as he began to enter, all sorts of Jews appeared, from left, right, and center.

"Please wait, do not leave, it's all THEIR fault!" they said And they pointed to each other, and to what was on each other's head.

Mashiach just looked sad, and said, "You don't understand." And then started up his chariot to get out of this land.

"Yes, it's very wonderful, that all of you learn Torah, But you seem to have forgotten, a crucial part of our mesorah."

"What does he mean? What's he talking about?" And they all looked bewildered, and all began to shout.

Mashiach looked back and answered, "The first place to start, is to shut up your mouths, and open up your heart.

To each of you, certain Yidden seem too frum or too frei but ALL Yidden are beloved, in the Aibeshter's eye."

And on his way up he shouted, "If you want me to come, try working a little harder on some ahavas chinam."

By Rabbi Yitzchok Feigenbaum The principal of a beis yaakov school :)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 02:09:50 PM by jj1000 »
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #142 on: February 07, 2012, 01:49:50 PM »
It's not. If he's a kohen then he definitely isn't from the descendants of King David, in which case the discussion is moot.
In can be moot, but the question can still be asked in inyan geredt.
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Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #143 on: February 07, 2012, 01:51:34 PM »
It's not. If he's a kohen then he definitely isn't from the descendants of King David, in which case the discussion is moot. Again:
he was not a kohen
Why not let cbs speak for himself?
i think he already did when he called him a rasha which besides for being quite a stupid and assur thing to say was hypocritical

Offline AsherO

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #144 on: February 07, 2012, 01:51:55 PM »
In can be moot, but the question can still be asked in inyan geredt.

Inyan geredt, Moshiach is more than just a person, but we already said that.

Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #145 on: February 07, 2012, 01:58:07 PM »
It's not. If he's a kohen then he definitely isn't from the descendants of King David, in which case the discussion is moot. Again:

Now that's just ignorance...
and like yesterday i admit to ignorance on the laws of mashiach and i still dont care bec your answer yesterday and today just avoid the point of the question

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #146 on: February 07, 2012, 02:07:58 PM »
and like yesterday i admit to ignorance on the laws of mashiach and i still dont care bec your answer yesterday and today just avoid the point of the question
And like yesterday your question (about someones personal hergesh, which I am not sure why you care about) was already answered.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #147 on: February 07, 2012, 02:12:44 PM »
and like yesterday i admit to ignorance on the laws of mashiach and i still dont care bec your answer yesterday and today just avoid the point of the question

1. The point of the question is whether we'll accept R' Shach as moshiach? That wasn't the OP's question.
2. We can't discuss who is (potentially) moshiach before we defined what he (and the concept) is, zil gmor.

The answer to the question about Shach appearing as Moshiach was answered by Dan, and I share his sentiments. If you want to know Cbs' take on the matter, ask him directly to address the question. If you feel there was a part of the question that wasn't answered, clarify what that is and people could address that.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #148 on: February 07, 2012, 02:14:31 PM »
And like yesterday your question (about someones personal hergesh, which I am not sure why you care about) was already answered.
i am not asking about someones personal hergsh, and the question was not answered by that bec that is only a reason to want him to be mashiach not to think that he is

Offline WhyAich

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Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #149 on: February 07, 2012, 02:16:58 PM »
This is crazy. Everyone can believe whoever he wants to be as moshiach. In general it says in Gemara that each sect believes his rebbe is moshiach. It's a clear gemara. The students of x believed he was moshiach, the students of y believed he was moshiach etc.
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #150 on: February 07, 2012, 02:17:33 PM »
Sorry, too many flaws in the logic (at least as presented here) for me to accept that.

I don't mean any disrespect to R' Wasserman Tatzal, but the following remains in question:

1. What happens before the first taavah a person chooses, do they then have clarity/purity? If yes, how could they make that first wrong choice and choose the taava?
2. What's the halachic proof (he cites a midrash), why don't the Rambam or any of the Jewish philosophers (chokrim) present it this way?
3. The midrash is referring to the almighty as the creator of the world, but what about the vastness of Hashem that transcends that, how can we prove that part?
4. The source midrash makes no mention of taavos, or the reason why the person wouldn't have seen it on his own, or what R' Akiva would indeed accomplish by telling him this if his intellectual clarity was indeed compromised.

This is surely not the classical approach to b'chira, but it's a nice perspective nevertheless, ושבעים פנים לתורה.
to be honest, i don't understand fully what your objections are. but in truth i think it's too deep an inyan to discuss with a keyboard (at least for me), i would need to use my mouth. btw, it's presented much clearer in the sefer itself. thanx for taking the time to read and anylize it.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #151 on: February 07, 2012, 02:19:57 PM »
i am not asking about someones personal hergsh, and the question was not answered by that bec that is only a reason to want him to be mashiach not to think that he is
Please as AsherO suggested state a direct question, and it will be answered... I am beyond confused as to what you are asking. if you look at you posts from yesterday I was answering exactly that. Now you are changing the wording of the question, its just a bit frustrating as I am sure you can understand... #Ihatesyntax
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #152 on: February 07, 2012, 02:21:54 PM »
i am not asking about someones personal hergsh, and the question was not answered by that bec that is only a reason to want him to be mashiach not to think that he is

These questions were answered by Dan's long posts.

As to why not the אבות, see הלכה ד here for clarification/description of who moshiach is and why they don't qualify.

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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #153 on: February 07, 2012, 02:24:17 PM »
Why do you have to live your life believing S/o is moshiach.
See I think the real question here is why live your life wondering and attacking what the other person thinks or believes.
Frankly I don't care who moshiach is, I just would hope to see him in my lifetime.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #154 on: February 07, 2012, 02:25:24 PM »
Frankly I don't care who moshiach is, I just would hope to see him in my lifetime.

Today! :D

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #155 on: February 07, 2012, 02:27:24 PM »
#ilovesyntax
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Granted, and Thank you because the truth is I LOVE syntax. As seen earlier in this thread. AsherO you never cease to amaze :)
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #156 on: February 07, 2012, 02:28:15 PM »
Today! :D
a la "Do teshuva one day before you die"
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Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #157 on: February 07, 2012, 02:32:06 PM »
1. The point of the question is whether we'll accept R' Shach as moshiach? That wasn't the OP's question.
as i understood the OP (jewda) he was saying/asking that many lubavitchers would not accept rav shach zt"l because they did not like him, meaning even if he fufilled all the technical obligations that are needed to be mashiach.
2. We can't discuss who is (potentially) moshiach before we defined what he (and the concept) is, zil gmor.
im not trying to figure out who is mashiach or who it could be
The answer to the question about Shach appearing as Moshiach was answered by Dan, and I share his sentiments. If you want to know Cbs' take on the matter, ask him directly to address the question. If you feel there was a part of the question that wasn't answered, clarify what that is and people could address that.
i liked his answer except for the part where he accused rav shach of having sinas chinum (that is not for us to say and definitely not in public like this.
and as for cbs i was being mocheh for kovod torah and he is welcome to answer back

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #158 on: February 07, 2012, 02:37:16 PM »
These questions were answered by Dan's long posts.

As to why not the אבות, see הלכה ד here for clarification/description of who moshiach is and why they don't qualify.

i accepted his answer (and i posted that) and my point wasnt that the avos should be mashiach but that i never knew a dead person could be mashiach but if so why not someone earlier and greater than the rebbe

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #159 on: February 07, 2012, 02:46:17 PM »
i liked his answer except for the part where he accused rav shach of having sinas chinum (that is not for us to say and definitely not in public like this.
From my view anyone, I don't care how great, learned, and holy someone is, but if they baselessly call my flavor of Orthodox Judaism a “cult” and "the religion closest to Judaism" and my rebbe "the madman who sits in New York and drives the whole world crazy" then I will say that person is spewing sinas chinum.

And don't think shach only had hateful things to say about chabad, he also saved plenty of it for many other gedolim and learned rabbis.  For a gadol to say such hateful statements in public about so many other rabbis and fellow jews is practically unheard of.

Still, if he were moshiach I would gladly accept G-ds will, but I would definitely line up to ask Eliyahu to please explain it to me.
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