Vaccine Discussion Master Thread

[Menachem613]

Methinks thou doth protesteth too much

+1

[henche]

For me, the opposite of no-vaccines is not "do whatever the doctor says". It is to do your own homework on why various vaccines are reccomended when they are.

Do they give HPV to babies because babies are at danger of HPV, or because they want to make sure everyone gets it before they leave the hospital?

Is there really no added risk in giving vaccines to newborns over giving them at 6 months? Might want to consider that if it is a disease you aren't worried about until later.

When I see statements from the NYC board of health that the flu vaccine is "perfectly safe", I wonder how that is possible given the  side effects which affect many people--in some cases worse than the flu. That doesn't mean the flu vaccine is not better on an expected value basis, but we are being lied to because they don't trust us to make the "right decision" if we would know all the information.

And once that is the case, it is fair to ask whether the "right decision" is better for society as a whole on an expected value basis, or better for me personally as well. Because I don't have the same interests as society as a whole.

[jaywhy]

From Facebook:

Yay. A self admitted "alcohol induced, rage filled rant" from an arrogant unnamed scientist...

[Menachem613]

For me, the opposite of no-vaccines is not "do whatever the doctor says". It is to do your own homework on why various vaccines are reccomended when they are.

Do they give HPV to babies because babies are at danger of HPV, or because they want to make sure everyone gets it before they leave the hospital?

Is there really no added risk in giving vaccines to newborns over giving them at 6 months? Might want to consider that if it is a disease you aren't worried about until later.

When I see statements from the NYC board of health that the flu vaccine is "perfectly safe", I wonder how that is possible given the  side effects which affect many people--in some cases worse than the flu. That doesn't mean the flu vaccine is not better on an expected value basis, but we are being lied to because they don't trust us to make the "right decision" if we would know all the information.

And once that is the case, it is fair to ask whether the "right decision" is better for society as a whole on an expected value basis, or better for me personally as well. Because I don't have the same interests as society as a whole.

What are said side effects of the flu shot?

[henche]

What are said side effects of the flu shot?

The flu shot: The viruses in the flu shot are killed (inactivated), so you cannot get the flu from a flu shot. Some minor side effects that could occur are:
Soreness, redness, or swelling where the shot was given
Fever (low grade)
Aches
The nasal spray: The viruses in the nasal spray vaccine are weakened and do not cause severe symptoms often associated with influenza illness. In children, side effects from the nasal spray can include:
Runny nose
Wheezing
Headache
Vomiting
Muscle aches
Fever
In adults, side effects from the nasal spray vaccine can include
Runny nose
Headache
Sore throat
Cough
If these problems occur, they begin soon after vaccination and are mild and short-lived. Almost all people who receive influenza vaccine have no serious problems from it. However, on rare occasions, flu vaccination can cause serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions. People who think that they have been injured by the flu shot can file a claim for compensation from the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP).

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/keyfacts.htm

Sounds kind of similar to the flu, huh?

Look, that's not to say you shouldn't get the flu shot. You need to balance the expected harm from not getting it against the expected harm from getting it, and then adjust for risk aversion. Heart surgery is also dangerous and kills people, but on an expected value basis it sometimes is better than heart disease.

[Menachem613]

My question was about the shot, not the nasal spray.  I don't see how its possible side effects are worse than the flu itself.

[Barryg]

For me, the opposite of no-vaccines is not "do whatever the doctor says". It is to do your own homework on why various vaccines are reccomended when they are.

Do they give HPV to babies because babies are at danger of HPV, or because they want to make sure everyone gets it before they leave the hospital?

Is there really no added risk in giving vaccines to newborns over giving them at 6 months? Might want to consider that if it is a disease you aren't worried about until later.

When I see statements from the NYC board of health that the flu vaccine is "perfectly safe", I wonder how that is possible given the  side effects which affect many people--in some cases worse than the flu. That doesn't mean the flu vaccine is not better on an expected value basis, but we are being lied to because they don't trust us to make the "right decision" if we would know all the information.

And once that is the case, it is fair to ask whether the "right decision" is better for society as a whole on an expected value basis, or better for me personally as well. Because I don't have the same interests as society as a whole.

+100

Yay. A self admitted "alcohol induced, rage filled rant" from an arrogant unnamed scientist...

Agree. Don't change your lifestyle and beliefs because he can curse.

My question was about the shot, not the nasal spray.  I don't see how its possible side effects are worse than the flu itself.

If you don't get a flu shot, you are not for sure getting the flu. The next question to ask are what are odds of getting flu, how bad is it if you even get the flu and what are the odds of getting side effects if you get a shot or spray. Unfortunately it won't be easy to answer any of the above Q's as not everyone that gets a flu or side effects will report it.

[henche]

My question was about the shot, not the nasal spray.  I don't see how its possible side effects are worse than the flu itself.

See the first three lines of my quote. And the last paragraph.

I'm not sure what you think is impossible. There are many things worse than the flu, and certainly dying of an allergic reaction can be one of them. As can signing up for an amex and doing 5k of minimum spend and then being denied the bonus bec you had a card too closely previously. Or being denied boarding on your avios flight to toronto.

[churnbabychurn]

@henche, Sounds like you were b'h never knocked out in bed for 2 weeks with the flu. Those minor side affects are nothing like the real deal.
IMHO.If you have a job or life and cant afford the risk of 2+ weeks of misery, get the shot and stop whining.

[henche]

@henche, Sounds like you were b'h never knocked out in bed for 2 weeks with the flu. Those minor side affects are nothing like the real deal.
IMHO.If you have a job or life and cant afford the risk of 2+ weeks of misery, get the shot and stop whining.

You mistake me. I agree with you--it is usually worth getting the flu shot. If you multiply your risk of getting the flu by the misery you expect to suffer, and then subtract the risk of side effects multiplied by the misery they cause, and subtract the time and money expended to get the shot, and subtract the needle if that bothers you--you usually end up with a positive number.

I'm just pointing out how "they" lie to us and tell us there are no side effects and is no risk, instead of trusting us to make my above calculation. My calculation is not equal to the NYC board of health declaring that it is absolutely safe and has no risk.

And then I'm noting that I personally have different interests than the boards of healths and the CDC, so it might not make sense for me to just accept their math instead of doing my own. (Of course add in the likelihood of my making a mistake in my math, and them having more perfect information, but my having more perfect personal information, and the cost of doing the math myself, etc.)

(Link this on the law school thread. This is the type of mush they put in your brain.)

[Barryg]

@henche, Sounds like you were b'h never knocked out in bed for 2 weeks with the flu. Those minor side affects are nothing like the real deal.
IMHO.If you have a job or life and cant afford the risk of 2+ weeks of misery, get the shot and stop whining.

B"H wasn't - maybe a day or two, but that was in HS and IIRC I wanted to be in bed anyways...

[Menachem613]

@henche, Sounds like you were b'h never knocked out in bed for 2 weeks with the flu. Those minor side affects are nothing like the real deal.
IMHO.If you have a job or life and cant afford the risk of 2+ weeks of misery, get the shot and stop whining.

+1

[Dan]

Very happy I got the nasal flu vaccine, nasty flu stuff going around.

[henche]

Very happy I got the nasal flu vaccine, nasty flu stuff going around.

I'm glad you got it too. Less people to get me sick 

[churnbabychurn]

You mistake me. I agree with you--it is usually worth getting the flu shot. If you multiply your risk of getting the flu by the misery you expect to suffer, and then subtract the risk of side effects multiplied by the misery they cause, and subtract the time and money expended to get the shot, and subtract the needle if that bothers you--you usually end up with a positive number.

I'm just pointing out how "they" lie to us and tell us there are no side effects and is no risk, instead of trusting us to make my above calculation. My calculation is not equal to the NYC board of health declaring that it is absolutely safe and has no risk.

And then I'm noting that I personally have different interests than the boards of healths and the CDC, so it might not make sense for me to just accept their math instead of doing my own. (Of course add in the likelihood of my making a mistake in my math, and them having more perfect information, but my having more perfect personal information, and the cost of doing the math myself, etc.)

(Link this on the law school thread. This is the type of mush they put in your brain.)

Add to your formula the risk of you infecting vulnerable relatives like pregnant wives, babies and elderly. (not "society", your family.)

[henche]

Add to your formula the risk of you infecting vulnerable relatives like pregnant wives, babies and elderly. (not "society", your family.)

yes yes, indeed. It really is a complicated formula. That would be added to the number.

Also don't forget to add the good feeling you get from doing something which you think is good for you.
Or to subtract the bad feeling you get from doing something you think you are being coerced into. As the case may be.

And to add or subtract the feeling you get from doing things other people are also doing, if that makes you feel good or bad.

And to subtract the possibility of picking up some germs when you visit the doctors office or pharmacy to get the shot.

And the remote possibility that the nurse is crazy and infecting you purposely with hepatitis. http://www.medicaldaily.com/david-kwiatkowski-hospital-tech-who-infected-patients-hepatitis-c-faces-40-years-federal-prison

And the possibility that the nurse will notice you have a cancerous mole on your arm while giving the shot and save your life. 

And the possibility you'll meet your bashert in the waiting room.

And the possibility you'll meet your bashert in the waiting room while she's sick as a pig and looks awful and so you won't date her when she's suggested and will end up marrying a shrew who won't let you play guitar hero and drink beer all night long.

And the possibility your wife is an anti-vaccine lunatic and will get mad at you for getting it.

[jj1000]

And the possibility you'll meet your bashert in the waiting room.

And the possibility you'll meet your bashert in the waiting room while she's sick as a pig and looks awful and so you won't date her when she's suggested and will end up marrying a shrew who won't let you play guitar hero and drink beer all night long.

I wasn't serious about finding a better wife. Please be happy with what you have and don't go looking just because of a comment I made on DDF.

And yes, we definitely need a DO if I'm ever in Beantown

[Dan]

Beantown again? 2x in a year?

[henche]

 

[thaber]

And once that is the case, it is fair to ask whether the "right decision" is better for society as a whole on an expected value basis, or better for me personally as well. Because I don't have the same interests as society as a whole.

And that there is a slippery moral slope, in which we can argue the benefits of a life of crime.