Vaccine Discussion Master Thread

[wayfe]

I added a wiki. I divided it into groups for "fact" and "opinion." Please feel free to add whichever facts you know and opinions you have.

Seriously? The great vaccine debate won't be solved on DDF.

[aygart]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC320893/

did you read the article you linked to? It says nothing remotely similar to what you attribute it to be saying.

[wayfe]

did you read the article you linked to? It says nothing remotely similar to what you attribute it to be saying.

From the article:

CONCLUSIONS: There are significantly elevated risks of febrile seizures on the day of receipt of DTP vaccine and 8 to 14 days after the receipt of MMR vaccine, but these risks do not appear to be associated with any long-term, adverse consequences.

I'm obviously not pro vaccines, and I'm not going to try to change anybody's mind.

My message is that whatever you do, be educated about it.

If you feel that the benefits outweigh the risks, then by all means go for it. But don't downplay the risks or pretend they don't exist.

Whatever you do, don't do it because somebody told you to do so, or because everybody is doing it.

[henche]

Seriously? The great vaccine debate won't be solved on DDF.

You just don't want to solve it because you're afraid to find out

[wayfe]

You just don't want to solve it because you're afraid to find out

If I'd be afraid of being wrong- I'd have chosen the more popular side a long time ago

[henche]

From the article:

CONCLUSIONS: There are significantly elevated risks of febrile seizures on the day of receipt of DTP vaccine and 8 to 14 days after the receipt of MMR vaccine, but these risks do not appear to be associated with any long-term, adverse consequences.

 obviously not pro vaccines, and I'm not going to try to change anybody's mind.

My message is that whatever you do, be educated about it.

If you feel that the benefits outweigh the risks, then by all means go for it. But don't downplay the risks or pretend they don't exist.

Whatever you do, don't do it because somebody told you to do so, or because everybody is doing it.

I agree with this. This is exactly the type of risk that they try to hide because they are afraid you'll choose wrong. I don't like that.

But I'm giving my kid vaccines anyway, because I had them and so will he.

[wayfe]

I agree with this. This is exactly the type of risk that they try to hide because they are afraid you'll choose wrong. I don't like that.

But I'm giving my kid vaccines anyway, because I had them and so will he.

And I never had them, so my kids won't. I'm just going to have to fight a lot harder to get my way.

[aygart]

From the article:

CONCLUSIONS: There are significantly elevated risks of febrile seizures on the day of receipt of DTP vaccine and 8 to 14 days after the receipt of MMR vaccine, but these risks do not appear to be associated with any long-term, adverse consequences.

I'm obviously not pro vaccines, and I'm not going to try to change anybody's mind.

My message is that whatever you do, be educated about it.

If you feel that the benefits outweigh the risks, then by all means go for it. But don't downplay the risks or pretend they don't exist.

Whatever you do, don't do it because somebody told you to do so, or because everybody is doing it.

did you read the whole thing or just that line? Nowhere does it say that it is normal. How about this sentence for lines earlier

The number of febrile seizures attributable to the administration of DTP and MMR vaccines was estimated to be 6 to 9 and 25 to 34 per 100,000 children, respectively

That comes to a maximum of 0.009% and 0.034% or one in 11,111 and 2941 children. Not exactly a normal reaction.

[wayfe]

I don't know enough about statistics to know what percentage makes something significant.

I meant normal as in an 'ok' as opposed to 'severe or dangerous' reaction.

[aygart]

I don't know enough about statistics to know what percentage makes something significant.

I meant normal as in an 'ok' as opposed to 'severe or dangerous' reaction.

in that case, what is your point? That there exists a rare reaction that is not considered to have a long term effect? So what?

[henche]

Let's put that in numbers I understand.

Approximately one in 3000 times the MMR is administered, the baby has a seizure from it.
Approximately one in 11000 times the TDP is administered, the baby has a seizure from it.

Presumably this result will hold true for other vaccines as well.

The vaccine regimen for kids up to age 11 is like 30 or so. Let's assume the average seizure rate for all vaccines is somewhere about 1 in 7000. So over 30 vaccines that will be 1 in 233 kids will have a seizure from receiving a vaccine.

That's not so rare. It's a whole lot less rare than the rate of major complications from chicken pox, which has a vaccine.

[Achas Veachas]

Let's put that in numbers I understand.

Approximately one in 3000 times the MMR is administered, the baby has a seizure from it.
Approximately one in 11000 times the TDP is administered, the baby has a seizure from it.

Presumably this result will hold true for other vaccines as well.

The vaccine regimen for kids up to age 11 is like 30 or so. Let's assume the average seizure rate for all vaccines is somewhere about 1 in 7000. So over 30 vaccines that will be 1 in 233 kids will have a seizure from receiving a vaccine.

That's not so rare. It's a whole lot less rare than the rate of major complications from chicken pox, which has a vaccine.

I don't know enough about seizures but your reasoning may be flawed, assuming some kids are more prone to getting seizures then those kids will get seizures from more than one vaccine and that would put the overall number of children getting seizures at a lot smaller than 1 in 233.

[henche]

I don't know enough about seizures but your reasoning may be flawed, assuming some kids are more prone to getting seizures then those kids will get seizures from more than one vaccine and that would put the overall number of children getting seizures at a lot smaller than 1 in 233.

Fair point. I'd thought of that, but wasn't sure how to build it in. Also, I'm not sure that makes me feel better if some kids are getting 30 seizures and some none.

[Achas Veachas]

Fair point. I'd thought of that, but wasn't sure how to build it in. Also, I'm not sure that makes me feel better if some kids are getting 30 seizures and some none.

I'm guessing if a kid was prone to seizures his doctor would tone down the vax.

Again I don't know, I could be making it up and it could be the seizures are a randome thing that come out of the blue...

[henche]

I'm guessing if a kid was prone to seizures his doctor would tone down the vax.

Again I don't know, I could be making it up and it could be the seizures are a randome thing that come out of the blue...

Ah, you mean once the kid got the seizure once.

[Achas Veachas]

Ah, you mean once the kid got the seizure once.

Unless there was some other way to know...

[henche]

Unless there was some other way to know...

Ah, and they only started testing for it after this study.

[aygart]

Let's put that in numbers I understand.

Approximately one in 3000 times the MMR is administered, the baby has a seizure from it.
Approximately one in 11000 times the TDP is administered, the baby has a seizure from it.

Presumably this result will hold true for other vaccines as well.

The vaccine regimen for kids up to age 11 is like 30 or so. Let's assume the average seizure rate for all vaccines is somewhere about 1 in 7000. So over 30 vaccines that will be 1 in 233 kids will have a seizure from receiving a vaccine.

That's not so rare. It's a whole lot less rare than the rate of major complications from chicken pox, which has a vaccine.

from the looks of it the prevalence of this issue can vary greatly between vaccines. It these two, one is three times more likely than the other. It is possible that others are less prevalent. I would imagine that the tolerance for side effects would be less for a vaccine for chicken pox than for polio.

[wayfe]

I'm guessing if a kid was prone to seizures his doctor would tone down the vax.

Well at what point is a kid "prone" to seizures? How many 'normal' seizures after vaccination does that take?

The more seizures a person has- the more prone he is to having more... while this sounds like a 'duh' statement, in truth- it sounds like if the first few could have been avoided- so could the rest.

Again I don't know, I could be making it up and it could be the seizures are a randome thing that come out of the blue...

From here:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/FebrileSeizures.html

Children recover quickly from febrile seizures.
Febrile seizures can be frightening, but nearly all children who have a febrile seizure recover quickly and are healthy afterwards. About 1 in 3 children who have one febrile seizure will have at least one more during childhood; some of these are linked to family health history. There is a small increased risk for febrile seizures after MMR and MMRV vaccines.

and

There is an increased risk for febrile seizures when influenza (flu) vaccine is given around the same time as PCV13 and DTaP vaccines.
A recent VSD study took a closer look at the 2010/2011 febrile seizure signal* for trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine (TIV or IIV) and pneumococcal 13-valent conjugate vaccine (PCV-13). The study included the 2006-2009 seasons in addition to the 2010-2011 influenza season. The findings showed that PCV and DTaP both increase risk of febrile seizure when given at the same time as the flu vaccine.  CDC found that when TIV was given alone, it was not associated with an increased risk of febrile seizures (in the influenza seasons studied).

*A signal is a scientific “red flag,” alerting CDC that a vaccine may be causing a problem.

[wayfe]

I would imagine that the tolerance for side effects would be less for a vaccine for chicken pox than for polio.

I'm not sure what you mean- tolerance on the side of the parents, or the recipients body?