Lakewood Shabbos rally

[PTU]

I pray that you never ever have to deal with a child like this....


.....because as hard as it is for anyone to handle, I think you'd do a horrible job!

As I posted up thread, at a certain stage, the poor lost puppy who just needs to be loved and understood, turns into a ferocious street dog that sometimes needs to be contained a little.

In other words, of course we should try to be "chilled and understanding", "live and let live" or shower them with love, parties, etc.
But there is a point where just a little push back is warranted.
They cannot defy everything that is holy befarhesya.
They are not entitled to have their own territory where they can do everything they want unchecked.
 

 

[Dan]

Not sure what that has to do with anything but you still have not answered it, nor can you.

And you didn't answer what I asked of you, so now we're even.

[yitrap]

As I posted up thread, at a certain stage, the poor lost puppy who just needs to be loved and understood, turns into a ferocious street dog that sometimes needs to be contained a little.

In other words, of course we should try to be "chilled and understanding", "live and let live" or shower them with love, parties, etc.
But there is a point where just a little push back is warranted.
They cannot defy everything that is holy befarhesya.
They are not entitled to have their own territory where they can do everything they want unchecked.
 

"The ferocious street dog" wasn't contained, it was poked with a stick...and ferocious street dogs that are poked bite...
Eta- the issue is that they are doing what they are doing, if your goal is to get them to stop- this is not the way, if your goal is to tell them you disapprove of what they are doing- this is still not the way...so what was the goal

[Dan]

As I posted up thread, at a certain stage, the poor lost puppy who just needs to be loved and understood, turns into a ferocious street dog that sometimes needs to be contained a little.

In other words, of course we should try to be "chilled and understanding", "live and let live" or shower them with love, parties, etc.
But there is a point where just a little push back is warranted.
They cannot defy everything that is holy befarhesya.
They are not entitled to have their own territory where they can do everything they want unchecked.

You're right. Time for Jihad!

[PTU]

You're right. Time for Jihad!

Calling a peaceful march by rabbis singing zemiros jihad is simply crazy

[Aj3042]

What some people here don't want to accept is that the same way we need to take care of OTD kids we need to take care of ourselves too. We need to come out and publicly show that their behavior is not acceptable. Whether or not that is in the best interests of those kids is irrelevant. It's in the best interests of ourselves and our kids-we need to show that public chillul shabbos will not be accepted and that its not OK. Believe it or not the whole torah doesn't come down to how to handle OTD kids. There are other issues at hand as well. We need to take care of ourselves too.

[yitrap]

You're right. Time for Jihad!

Can we call it a crusade? I like the sound of that better

[Aj3042]

Calling a peaceful march by rabbis singing zemiros jihad is simply crazy

Well your'e upsetting the (disrespectful of us) OTD kids. Isn't that the very definition of jihad?

[Dan]

Calling a peaceful march by rabbis singing zemiros jihad is simply crazy

Zemiros isn't far enough. Time to bring back corporal punishment. 

[yitrap]

What some people here don't want to accept is that the same way we need to take care of OTD kids we need to take care of ourselves too. We need to come out and publicly show that their behavior is not acceptable. Whether or not that is in the best interests of those kids is irrelevant. It's in the best interests of ourselves and our kids-we need to show that public chillul shabbos will not be accepted and that its not OK. Believe it or not the whole torah doesn't come down to how to handle OTD kids. There are other issues at hand as well. We need to take care of ourselves too.

That is not the way to teach our kids kovod shabbos and definitely not the way to teach them kovod habriyos...
The amount of unhealthy exposure these kids got from one shabbos afternoon is shocking

[Dan]

What some people here don't want to accept is that the same way we need to take care of OTD kids we need to take care of ourselves too. We need to come out and publicly show that their behavior is not acceptable. Whether or not that is in the best interests of those kids is irrelevant. It's in the best interests of ourselves and our kids-we need to show that public chillul shabbos will not be accepted and that its not OK. Believe it or not the whole torah doesn't come down to how to handle OTD kids. There are other issues at hand as well. We need to take care of ourselves too.

So you're pushing them even further away and are attempting to cause further anti-frum sentiment for your own selfish reasons?
Cool story. Awesome hashkafa.

[Aj3042]

That is not the way to teach our kids kovod shabbos and definitely not the way to teach them kovod habriyos...
The amount of unhealthy exposure these kids got from one shabbos afternoon is shocking

That's a personal opinion, and a pacifist one at that. but as long as you're saying that and not discussing what the OTD kids think about it we have what to talk about.

[Freddie]

Just a general insight, not directed at anyone in particular:

There's loving someone because of who they already are and there's loving someone in order to change them. The irony is that the former may have the power to may change them but the latter does not. The explanation may be that the former is love while the latter is not. Love is not barter or manipulation or emotional blackmail (heh, now you owe me!) When we love people in that kind of way, we invariably come to hate them.

I'm not saying this about "kiruv" per se. I mean life in general.

[PTU]

Zemiros isn't far enough. Time to bring back corporal punishment.

[Aj3042]

So you're pushing them even further away and are attempting to cause further anti-frum sentiment for your own selfish reasons?
Cool story. Awesome hashkafa.

Again, the whole torah doesn't come down to how to handle OTD kids. Ever heard of chayecha kodmin? Don't make it sound like these OTD kids take precedence over your own. Your main job is to keep your family on the derech, not the whole world.

[aygart]

Or they will stop hiding by the lake and instead sit right in the middle of their development

They left their developments because they made to feel uncomfortable there albeit on a much lower scale.

[Aj3042]

So you're pushing them even further away and are attempting to cause further anti-frum sentiment for your own selfish reasons?
Cool story. Awesome hashkafa.

Your use of the word selfish is so off it's crazy. If you have a choice between teaching your kids to keep shabbos or teaching it to some random OTD kids i think we all know where your responsibilities lie. Don't throw around these terms that cloud the issue.

They left their developments because they made to feel uncomfortable there albeit on a much lower scale.

Good point. Let's here what the enlightened and "tolerant" (of chillul shabbos and OTD) folks answer to that.

[Freddie]

Again, the whole torah doesn't come down to how to handle OTD kids. Ever heard of chayecha kodmin? Don't make it sound like these OTD kids take precedence over your own. Your main job is to keep your family on the derech, not the whole world.

As long as you keep believing that you will have to build taller and taller walls. Ironically self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Dan]

Again, the whole torah doesn't come down to how to handle OTD kids. Ever heard of chayecha kodmin? Don't make it sound like these OTD kids take precedence over your own. Your main job is to keep your family on the derech, not the whole world.

Yup, that's why there are 5,000 shluchim living in remote corners of the earth. Because they're selfish and chayecha kodmin. 
Our job is to be Avraham, not Noach.

Kids are far more impressed and will be better Jews when their parents invite someone OTD for chicken soup and divrei torah then by the videos of the rally that I saw.

[yitrap]

That's a personal opinion, and a pacifist one at that. but as long as you're saying that and not discussing what the OTD kids think about it we have what to talk about.

If you think the reason for the march was to show their own children that it's unacceptable and we won't stand for it I'm happy to debate you there as well...
It's been said upthread but there are many ways that are much better to be mechanech children about kovod shabbos and loving shabbos and even to make a Macho then marching the lake singing about shabbos.