Author Topic: Abortion = Murder?  (Read 52772 times)

Offline Sport

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #160 on: January 28, 2017, 10:26:47 PM »
You definitely are supposed to try to understand them and have them impact your life, but if you decide not to do something because you don't understand it or don't agree with it morally; then the Torah isn't changing you, you're changing the Torah. At the end of the day, the designer knows what makes the product tick better than the user. Rationalizing the Torah is wonderful, but if you conform it to fit your rationalization you're not a believer. Anybody who feels the need to apologize for G-d doesn't believe in him. As nice as the social justice aspects of religion are, if you think that's all G-d should or has the right to dictate you're a כופר.
Not sure why you quoted me, nothing that I said was addressed specifically with rationalizing the 2 cases being discussed here, I was presenting a general hashkafic outlook.
I would say though, that because we know that hashem is just and his mitzvos and the torah are meant to be a guide for us to become just, like him, that does raise a difficulty when there is a mitzvah that seems unjust. It's a flaw in our understanding but doesn't mean we cant be bothered by and question it, as long as it's the context of trying to gain a better understanding.
Thats not rationalizing It's comprehending and knowing god.

Offline wayfe

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #161 on: January 28, 2017, 11:59:16 PM »
Uch, its friday and dont have the time to respond appropriately as you said this is complicated, but I'll give it a shot.

I agree completely that doing mitzvahs solely for the benifts they provide us comes with the great risk you mentioned, thats why I would never advocate that. However, the fact that secular ethics don't correspond with jewish ones does not mean that we as humans are incapable of reaching these truths. It may be extremely challenging but they are objective truths. Luckily we do have the Torah that outlines them all for us so we're not left on our own where we would have most likely become misguided.

Now that we do have the Torah, that doesnt mean we should ignore the intuitive nature of the mitzvos and their benefits. Just to underscore the importance of seeing the benifits of the mitzvos:
 In fact the sefe hachinuch writes by one of the mitzvos (i forget which) that he searched and agonized over that mitzvha to try and find a reason for it because he felt that if he didn't come up with a reason his son would be at risk to abandon the entire torah. Even after finding a reason and benifit behind all the other 612 mitzvis he still felt this concern.

As to your points regarding the heart following the head. I agree to an extent, but its not magic. If you have no understanding and appreciation of what you are doing it will have minimal impact on your heart.
There's much more to this discussion but shabbos is approaching and I'm ignorring my wife and kids :)
Good shabbos!

We're in agreement.

I'm just saying that the rationale is secondary.

First and foremost we do Mitzvos because we were commanded. Whether we understand them or not.

Of course we always try to understand every commandment to the extent of our reasoning abilities. And of course the reason enhances our actions. (טַעַם = reason and taste...).
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers which can't be questioned."
Richard Feynman

Offline wayfe

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #162 on: January 29, 2017, 12:19:45 AM »
wayfe, you are certainly entitled to your beliefs but just want to point out that you do not speak for all Jews. I was brought up- and currently subscribe- to a very different, rationalist approach than what you describe, achieving perfection by pursuing knowledge, striving to understand the deeper ideas to mitzvos so we can understand exactly how they are supposed to perfect us,

Yes, we are all entitled (at least according to American law) to believe what we choose. I'm not sure I understand what you've written but if you're saying that you only do Mitzvos because they make you a better person or because it a humane way of life- then I (respectfully) challenge your belief system.

Quote
which is a bit more involved than just doing it BECAUSE we are commanded to do it...

Your addition of the word 'just' indicates that you did not understand my post.
I specifically added to my post
Quote
ETA: This doesn't mean that religious people can shut off our minds and disregard logic. We always use logic to explore any topic to the limits of our minds, but ultimately we understand that logic is not the be and end all. There's more.

I see it as the balance of striving to attain more knowledge and acceptance of the suprarational divine as cyclical;
As human beings, we are finite creations. As such, it should be impossible for us to understand the divine, the infinite. According to the laws of logic- something finite cannot contain infinity. How can a finite mind understand infinity? As we delve into and explore any topic in Torah intellectually and logically- we stretch the limits of our minds but eventually we hit the glass ceiling. We know there is more yet we can't understand it. At that point, we bypass the limits of our logically constrained minds and understand with our soul. This in turn enriches and broadens the mind so that it has even more capacity to understand- and the cycle starts again.
Not sure if this made any sense, but I tried...
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers which can't be questioned."
Richard Feynman

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #163 on: November 09, 2017, 05:38:57 PM »
Abortion = Murder?
Did we ever get an answer?  :)
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Offline as2

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #164 on: November 09, 2017, 05:41:42 PM »
Abortion = Murder?
Did we ever get an answer?  :)
Well, JTZ left us before we could really sort it out. Really ready for Friday aren't you?
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #165 on: November 09, 2017, 05:44:59 PM »
Well, JTZ left us before we could really sort it out. Really ready for Friday aren't you?
You are the one to blame for me asking.  :P
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Offline aygart

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #166 on: November 09, 2017, 05:54:56 PM »
If it is murder then it makes no difference if the baby is from a rape etc. If it is not then it makes no difference if it isn't. Why do some politicians make that distinction?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #167 on: November 09, 2017, 06:06:02 PM »
If it is murder then it makes no difference if the baby is from a rape etc. If it is not then it makes no difference if it isn't. Why do some politicians make that distinction?
I guess easier to justify in their own mind? Also they look at the polls.
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Offline henche

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #168 on: November 09, 2017, 06:10:38 PM »
Murder is an unlawful killing with malice aforethought.


Offline aygart

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #169 on: November 09, 2017, 06:10:52 PM »
I guess easier to justify in their own mind? Also they look at the polls.
Except that by doing so they lose the entire moral justification. Do you mean to say that the polls count more than something they claim to be murder? Shocking.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #170 on: November 09, 2017, 06:11:53 PM »
Murder is an unlawful killing with malice aforethought.
According to this the Nazis weren't murderers.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #171 on: November 09, 2017, 06:18:05 PM »
Except that by doing so they lose the entire moral justification. Do you mean to say that the polls count more than something they claim to be murder? Shocking.
By the polls I mean they will have more support if they make an exception for rape. Doesn't mean they believe it to be right but better to save some lives than none.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #172 on: November 09, 2017, 06:53:48 PM »
If it is murder then it makes no difference if the baby is from a rape etc. If it is not then it makes no difference if it isn't. Why do some politicians make that distinction?

You can make an argument that the woman should not have to suffer significant emotional pain through no fault of her own. Like an emotional Rodef? (Obviously not talking from a Jewish POV)
Visibly Jewish

Offline aygart

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #173 on: November 09, 2017, 06:55:49 PM »
You can make an argument that the woman should not have to suffer significant emotional pain through no fault of her own. Like an emotional Rodef? (Obviously not talking from a Jewish POV)
To commit murder?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #174 on: November 09, 2017, 06:58:48 PM »
To commit murder?

Is killing a rodef murder?
Emotional pain can be worse than death.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #175 on: November 09, 2017, 07:00:40 PM »
Is killing a rodef murder?
Psychological pain can be worse than death.
Well, Trump is causing psychological pain too. Should we kill him?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #176 on: November 09, 2017, 07:01:34 PM »
Well, Trump is causing psychological pain too. Should we kill him?
:-X :-X :-X
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #177 on: November 09, 2017, 07:08:04 PM »
Well, Trump is causing psychological pain too. Should we kill him?

So liberals are equal to rape victims?
Explains all the incessant screeching.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #178 on: November 09, 2017, 07:09:27 PM »
So liberals are equal to rape victims?
Explains all the incessant screeching.
Where will you draw the line of which innocent person should be killed? What about a baby which was born from a rape?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline chinagel

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #179 on: November 09, 2017, 07:11:32 PM »
Where will you draw the line of which innocent person should be killed? What about a baby which was born from a rape?
or all down syndrome fetuses