Author Topic: Dating in the jewish world while disabled  (Read 30153 times)

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #100 on: February 14, 2018, 10:02:34 AM »
I know this was answered already but just wanted to add.

When I train lifeguards I always tell them you may meet a macho lifeguard that'll tell you he's saved 10 kids from drowning and how amazing he is. I tell them that in 10 years of guarding I have never saved anyone from drowning, because I never let my pool be in a situation where someone would be drowning.

The best lifeguards know when a drowning would occur and do everything they can do avoid being in that situation. Same thing with a test in Judaism. We build "fences" around the Torah in order that we shouldn't come to be drowning.
Anyone lifeguard that believes no one could ever drown in their pool is a xxxx to put it bluntly.



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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #101 on: February 14, 2018, 10:07:40 AM »
I am trying to understand this one night stand stuff. Do you think in the non-frum world those looking for their soulmate are engaging in one night stands?
I wasn't just referring to one night stands, though that can happen in a more casual setting.

In general, referring to a longer term relationship where there's sex during a dating process, which is one of the reasons for a short and rule filled shidduch dating process.
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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #102 on: February 14, 2018, 10:08:23 AM »
It WOULD help. I just don't think it would solve the whole situation as much as people tend to think. There's no doubt it would help.
We're on the same page then.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #103 on: February 14, 2018, 10:20:39 AM »
Anyone lifeguard that believes no one could ever drown in their pool is a xxxx to put it bluntly.




Anyone that took that from my post is a xxx to put it bluntly  ::) ::) ::)

Seriously I have NO idea how you thought that.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #104 on: February 14, 2018, 10:30:56 AM »
Anyone that took that from my post is a xxx to put it bluntly  ::) ::) ::)

Seriously I have NO idea how you thought that.
Maybe because of this part?
...because I never let my pool be in a situation where someone would be drowning.
That is impossible to do.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #105 on: February 14, 2018, 10:34:57 AM »
I wasn't just referring to one night stands, though that can happen in a more casual setting.

In general, referring to a longer term relationship where there's sex during a dating process, which is one of the reasons for a short and rule filled shidduch dating process.
I am not disagreeing. In many religions there is long dating processes without any sex. My point is it is the person not the process that is the problem. Would that be a fair statement?
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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #106 on: February 14, 2018, 10:35:42 AM »
Maybe because of this part?That is impossible to do.
::) ::) ::)::) ::) ::)::) ::) ::)

Of course it is. You are right. Semantics aside I hope you see my point.
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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #107 on: February 14, 2018, 10:36:56 AM »
I am not disagreeing. In many religions there is long dating processes without any sex. My point is it is the person not the process that is the problem. Would that be a fair statement?
Religious Jews do thousands of seemingly odd things in order to avoid situations where you may find yourself tested. Nothing new here.
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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #108 on: February 14, 2018, 10:38:29 AM »
You makes some very good points, but it’s hard to see a practical way of implementing the above in a non MO setting. How do you draw the line with only the 25+ crowd (25 for a boy is probably too soon) chatting by the kiddush etc. and expect younger people to desist? How do you prevent the chatting from descending to what a right wing town would consider “kalus Rosh”?
 Having dedicated 25+ singles events is probably not going to work since these are notorious for being poorly attended by quality boys.

So good ideas in theory but extremely tough to implement in practice ....
And that's probably why things are where they are now.
I think the shidduch system works for 90% of people, so those numbers aren't bad. But there does need to be a solution for the 10%.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #109 on: February 14, 2018, 10:45:42 AM »
Semantics aside I hope you see my point.
Actually I do.
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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #110 on: February 14, 2018, 01:29:56 PM »
I have no problem with sexually active relationships, with no marriage options in the foreseeable future. Thats not to say i'm looking for them, i'm just saying if it was there i'd take it.

I dont do one night stands though ive had my fair share of opportunities.

I'll tell you that non jewish / non religious women are more likely to see a guy like me for who he is and what kind of person I  am. maybe @Denverite  is right and guys and girls cant be friends.

But the ladder theory applies broadly to women in the non jewish world, they can pursue and explore feelings for a guy,  though the ladder theory is generally accurate about guys too, they mostly see woman on a scale of prospective sexual partners.

But you wont find the avg frum woman say "oh im going to give him a chance and get to know him etc.." the mindset is too closed, too limiting, too much with "do i want to marry him, oh no.. never mind I dont know him"


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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #111 on: February 14, 2018, 01:36:07 PM »
I have no problem with sexually active relationships, with no marriage options in the foreseeable future. Thats not to say i'm looking for them, i'm just saying if it was there i'd take it.

I dont do one night stands though ive had my fair share of opportunities.

I'll tell you that non jewish / non religious women are more likely to see a guy like me for who he is and what kind of person I  am. maybe @Denverite  is right and guys and girls cant be friends.

But the ladder theory applies broadly to women in the non jewish world, they can pursue and explore feelings for a guy,  though the ladder theory is generally accurate about guys too, they mostly see woman on a scale of prospective sexual partners.

But you wont find the avg frum woman say "oh im going to give him a chance and get to know him etc.." the mindset is too closed, too limiting, too much with "do i want to marry him, oh no.. never mind I dont know him"
You're describing it as a bug when it's actually a feature. That feature comes with some collateral damage. I don't know what the right answer is to avoid that damage, and I feel terrible that it exists for those like yourself that are affected. But it's not so easy to tell the 90% (or whatever the percentage is) that it works well for that they should take a new approach to dating/marriage that's worse (certainly in their minds) for them but reduces the collateral damage.

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #112 on: February 14, 2018, 02:17:29 PM »
And that's probably why things are where they are now.
I think the shidduch system works for 90% of people, so those numbers aren't bad. But there does need to be a solution for the 10%.

Finding that solution is totally the $64,000 question!  :)


You makes some very good points, but it’s hard to see a practical way of implementing the above in a non MO setting. How do you draw the line with only the 25+ crowd (25 for a boy is probably too soon) chatting by the kiddush etc. and expect younger people to desist? How do you prevent the chatting from descending to what a right wing town would consider “kalus Rosh”?
 Having dedicated 25+ singles events is probably not going to work since these are notorious for being poorly attended by quality boys.

So good ideas in theory but extremely tough to implement in practice ....

You're describing it as a bug when it's actually a feature. That feature comes with some collateral damage. I don't know what the right answer is to avoid that damage, and I feel terrible that it exists for those like yourself that are affected. But it's not so easy to tell the 90% (or whatever the percentage is) that it works well for that they should take a new approach to dating/marriage that's worse (certainly in their minds) for them but reduces the collateral damage.

I definitely understand this tension and want to keep the normal system.  How about rebbeim speaking privately with people that everyone knows aren't gonna be "on the top of the shidduch lists" and privately encouraging them early on (especially girls, where time is of the essence) to not feel embarrased to be pro-active about trying to meet people.  If they are still living at home or seminary or yeshiva, how about telling friends, trusted teachers, rebbeim, etc. to please always be thinking of them and not just for blind dates, but for a joint shabbos meal.  Like, if the girl is very overweight or has a disability, why not let the guy meet her on Shabbos and the wife can privately ask afterward if he'd like to go out with her without breaking her heart with a painful blind date and rejection?  Maybe after having a few laughs or a comfortable time that guy is willing to try a date?  More informal set-ups can be great, are still "shidduchim" but not from resumes and these Shabbos meals aren't going to "ruin" the shidduch system for the average kids. 

As a slightly related example, I have a close FFB Sephardic friend who affiliates with Chabad and they are quite well off.  Her handsome and erliche son came up in an OOT school (the local frum school, no Chabad school in the city), feels more comfortable around the ashkenazi kids he grew up with, has decided he wants to go the Yeshivish route, is now a top learner in Lakewood and told his parents he'd really like to marry a Yeshivish girl.  The Lakewood shadchanim are definitely only sending him "non-standard" shidduchim, to say the least, and they would be licking this family and boy's boots if his parents were slightly different.  One told her "why would a normal ashkenazi girl marry your son?"  I straight out told her not to count on them and that she is going to have to pursue local people that she knows and know their beautiful family to try to find him a shidduch that way.  It would be a shame to wait around for the system to fit them in.  As a boy, he will eventually find a great shidduch, probably from someone who knows them (although I've seen lovely hareidi Sephardic girls have this kind of problem and kind of "miss their window").

I think my BT hevre intiutively knew that we were going to have be pro-active (because we had no frum parents to help us).  One of the reasons I didn't stay in EY after seminary was because I knew I wasn't really going to get set-up there because I didn't fit in (learned at a Yeshivish place, love Chabad but don't want to be Lubavitch, didn't really want to date MO but felt comfortable in that environment, my parents are divorced, etc., etc.).  Men found me attractive and I never lacked for male attention and dates so that wasn't an issue for me (and half the battle for a girl), it was more figuring out my place in the frum world and how to meet appropriate people in appropriate settings.  I'm SO glad that I decided to return to the US and live in the more "modern" neighborhood of my large city (not Denver) where me and my friends could have and create some of these opportunities.  It's actually a miracle that we took the initiative to do this on our own but our haredi kiruv rebbeim (both Lubavitch and Yeshivish) never discouraged us because they also know this and just quietly hold BT's to another standard (which is actually good in this case).  Maybe we don't change the whole ideal shiduch system for FFBs but then we and community leaders try to be aware and active about privately encouraging these singles to seek out (or create) mixed opportunities to meet people. 

For example, the rav for the girl in this article might have wanted to say, "Listen, I don't normally advise this but you should be not only actively seeking out formal shidduchim but advocating for yourself to others to actually PUT you in social settings where guys can get to know you as more than your disability on paper and it could lead to appropriate dating."  She might not have wasted those precious years waiting around for horrific shidduch dates with Pedophiles and maybe when she was less bitter and angry, could have been meeting and making a better impression on a wider pool of guys in a mixed setting.  Ok, that was an extreme example but y'all get my drift.  Maybe hareidi Rabbis and Rebbetzins and community members as a whole can have some introspection and the courage to have some of these private conversations, maybe that might help? Maybe I'm also in LaLa land, spent too long now OOT and this will never happen!  :P
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 02:23:15 PM by Denverite »

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #113 on: February 14, 2018, 04:20:01 PM »
Finding that solution is totally the $64,000 question!  :)


I definitely understand this tension and want to keep the normal system.  How about rebbeim speaking privately with people that everyone knows aren't gonna be "on the top of the shidduch lists" and privately encouraging them early on (especially girls, where time is of the essence) to not feel embarrased to be pro-active about trying to meet people.  If they are still living at home or seminary or yeshiva, how about telling friends, trusted teachers, rebbeim, etc. to please always be thinking of them and not just for blind dates, but for a joint shabbos meal.  Like, if the girl is very overweight or has a disability, why not let the guy meet her on Shabbos and the wife can privately ask afterward if he'd like to go out with her without breaking her heart with a painful blind date and rejection?  Maybe after having a few laughs or a comfortable time that guy is willing to try a date?  More informal set-ups can be great, are still "shidduchim" but not from resumes and these Shabbos meals aren't going to "ruin" the shidduch system for the average kids. 

As a slightly related example, I have a close FFB Sephardic friend who affiliates with Chabad and they are quite well off.  Her handsome and erliche son came up in an OOT school (the local frum school, no Chabad school in the city), feels more comfortable around the ashkenazi kids he grew up with, has decided he wants to go the Yeshivish route, is now a top learner in Lakewood and told his parents he'd really like to marry a Yeshivish girl.  The Lakewood shadchanim are definitely only sending him "non-standard" shidduchim, to say the least, and they would be licking this family and boy's boots if his parents were slightly different.  One told her "why would a normal ashkenazi girl marry your son?"  I straight out told her not to count on them and that she is going to have to pursue local people that she knows and know their beautiful family to try to find him a shidduch that way.  It would be a shame to wait around for the system to fit them in.  As a boy, he will eventually find a great shidduch, probably from someone who knows them (although I've seen lovely hareidi Sephardic girls have this kind of problem and kind of "miss their window").

I think my BT hevre intiutively knew that we were going to have be pro-active (because we had no frum parents to help us).  One of the reasons I didn't stay in EY after seminary was because I knew I wasn't really going to get set-up there because I didn't fit in (learned at a Yeshivish place, love Chabad but don't want to be Lubavitch, didn't really want to date MO but felt comfortable in that environment, my parents are divorced, etc., etc.).  Men found me attractive and I never lacked for male attention and dates so that wasn't an issue for me (and half the battle for a girl), it was more figuring out my place in the frum world and how to meet appropriate people in appropriate settings.  I'm SO glad that I decided to return to the US and live in the more "modern" neighborhood of my large city (not Denver) where me and my friends could have and create some of these opportunities.  It's actually a miracle that we took the initiative to do this on our own but our haredi kiruv rebbeim (both Lubavitch and Yeshivish) never discouraged us because they also know this and just quietly hold BT's to another standard (which is actually good in this case).  Maybe we don't change the whole ideal shiduch system for FFBs but then we and community leaders try to be aware and active about privately encouraging these singles to seek out (or create) mixed opportunities to meet people. 

For example, the rav for the girl in this article might have wanted to say, "Listen, I don't normally advise this but you should be not only actively seeking out formal shidduchim but advocating for yourself to others to actually PUT you in social settings where guys can get to know you as more than your disability on paper and it could lead to appropriate dating."  She might not have wasted those precious years waiting around for horrific shidduch dates with Pedophiles and maybe when she was less bitter and angry, could have been meeting and making a better impression on a wider pool of guys in a mixed setting.  Ok, that was an extreme example but y'all get my drift.  Maybe hareidi Rabbis and Rebbetzins and community members as a whole can have some introspection and the courage to have some of these private conversations, maybe that might help? Maybe I'm also in LaLa land, spent too long now OOT and this will never happen!  :P

I completely agree. I am in my high 20s and living in yeshivish circles. I always say I wish I can meet someone in a more organic setting but I know it won't happen due to my upbringing and social circles. I generally do not do very well in the dating scene. I get dates no problem but I know that I come across as standoffish and stilted. I've worked on it over the years and have definitely gotten better, but it is what it is.
I've tried speed dating and it's okay, but like it's been mentioned, the guys are not on par with the girls at all.

That being said, I don't agree with OP. I'm sorry to say, but you sound bitter and whiny. I feel for your circumstances, I really do, and I don't judge as I have no idea how I'd deal with it. Probably a lot worse.  But dating sucks for everyone. Everyone gets set up based on superficial things, regardless of your status. It's the way the system was built. I'm not saying I love it, and it clearly doesn't work for everyone, but it's the way it has to be for 'logical' dating.
I don't know why you think you would a 'freak show'.  Wouldn't you rather only date people who are willing and agreeable to your disability, rather than casually hang out with someone until they actually think about it and decide they're not up to the task?

As much as I detest the shidduch dating system, and I REALLY do, in my mind it's better than the alternative.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #114 on: February 14, 2018, 04:29:42 PM »
As much as I detest the shidduch dating system, and I REALLY do, in my mind it's better than the alternative.
What is so bad about the alternative?
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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #115 on: February 14, 2018, 04:36:21 PM »
I completely agree. I am in my high 20s and living in yeshivish circles. I always say I wish I can meet someone in a more organic setting but I know it won't happen due to my upbringing and social circles. I generally do not do very well in the dating scene. I get dates no problem but I know that I come across as standoffish and stilted. I've worked on it over the years and have definitely gotten better, but it is what it is.
I've tried speed dating and it's okay, but like it's been mentioned, the guys are not on par with the girls at all.

That being said, I don't agree with OP. I'm sorry to say, but you sound bitter and whiny. I feel for your circumstances, I really do, and I don't judge as I have no idea how I'd deal with it. Probably a lot worse.  But dating sucks for everyone. Everyone gets set up based on superficial things, regardless of your status. It's the way the system was built. I'm not saying I love it, and it clearly doesn't work for everyone, but it's the way it has to be for 'logical' dating.
I don't know why you think you would a 'freak show'.  Wouldn't you rather only date people who are willing and agreeable to your disability, rather than casually hang out with someone until they actually think about it and decide they're not up to the task?

As much as I detest the shidduch dating system, and I REALLY do, in my mind it's better than the alternative.

Time to start a DDF Shidduch facilitating group. Middle aged or so couples (vetted) who would be amenable to hosting singles for a shabbos meal or other viable gatherings and be willing to help stand in as shadchanim as needed. Only half joking. I have a feeling though that bringing in boys that are on par with the girls would be challenging.

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #116 on: February 14, 2018, 04:38:34 PM »
What is so bad about the alternative?
The drama, the angst, the instability etc. And on an unrelated note, I can't fathom going through highschool/teenage years having to deal with all that.
At least here there is a process we follow and we know it's headed somewhere. There's no pointless dating for years on end.

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #117 on: February 14, 2018, 04:42:17 PM »
The drama, the angst, the instability etc. And on an unrelated note, I can't fathom going through highschool/teenage years having to deal with all that.
At least here there is a process we follow and we know it's headed somewhere. There's no pointless dating for years on end.
Don't believe all the hype. If it works for millions it must have some benefit.
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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #118 on: February 14, 2018, 04:44:35 PM »
I completely agree. I am in my high 20s and living in yeshivish circles. I always say I wish I can meet someone in a more organic setting but I know it won't happen due to my upbringing and social circles. I generally do not do very well in the dating scene. I get dates no problem but I know that I come across as standoffish and stilted. I've worked on it over the years and have definitely gotten better, but it is what it is.
I've tried speed dating and it's okay, but like it's been mentioned, the guys are not on par with the girls at all.

That being said, I don't agree with OP. I'm sorry to say, but you sound bitter and whiny. I feel for your circumstances, I really do, and I don't judge as I have no idea how I'd deal with it. Probably a lot worse.  But dating sucks for everyone. Everyone gets set up based on superficial things, regardless of your status. It's the way the system was built. I'm not saying I love it, and it clearly doesn't work for everyone, but it's the way it has to be for 'logical' dating.
I don't know why you think you would a 'freak show'.  Wouldn't you rather only date people who are willing and agreeable to your disability, rather than casually hang out with someone until they actually think about it and decide they're not up to the task?

As much as I detest the shidduch dating system, and I REALLY do, in my mind it's better than the alternative.

I AM NOT bitter. I have a 6 course 12 wines dinner tonight and I dont give 2 flying f***s about dates.

I feel bad for the situation the writer in the article is in. I can relate to their hurt and pain.

I dont care because I wont get near the shidduch system so it doesnt affect me.  But, you cant understand how much harder it is for disabled people.

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Re: Dating in the jewish world while disabled
« Reply #119 on: February 14, 2018, 04:45:06 PM »
Don't believe all the hype. If it works for millions it must have some benefit.
Does it though? Percentage-wise?