Author Topic: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related  (Read 293496 times)

Offline avromie7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 7307
  • Total likes: 1807
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2840 on: August 23, 2021, 02:33:39 PM »
Most of it sounds pretty rational but might drive behaviors/choices that data will show is in the interest of public safety. IOW I donít see how many people who have already made up their vaccine-hesitancy mind up will be swayed by this article.

COVID getting America to address its obesity/soda/fast-food problem is a pipe dream.
I don't think the goal of the article is to convince people to get vaccinated as much as it points out the utter failure of the messaging. It is directly responsible for the overwhelming majority (if not more) of the vaccine hesitancy among people who are otherwise not anti-vax, as well as feeding into the anti-vax propaganda, leading to many more anti-vaxxers.. The solution is not an article, it's for everyone responsible for messaging to stop hiding the facts and to be receptive to peoples questions and concerns instead of allowing their concerns to fester among anti-vaxxers as proof of how evil the vaccine is.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 4804
  • Total likes: 5282
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2841 on: August 23, 2021, 02:45:11 PM »
So what?

So 2 months of lockdown caused the frum community to move in the opposite direction from addressing its obesity/soda/fast-food problem?
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14501
  • Total likes: 9855
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2842 on: August 23, 2021, 02:45:23 PM »
And once again I'll push play on my CD. When you lie by omission, or exaggerate the positive and diminish the negatives in the interest of public health, people will lose trust. This will be branded as "vaccine skepticism" or whatever by many pro vaxxers, yet it will almost certainly be more influential in getting people to vaccinate than anything published by those self-same pro vaxxers who think they are doing the public by exaggerating the benefits and diminishing the risks. I do think he could have been a bit clearer about his conclusions that virtually everyone should get vaccinated.
Newsweek: Why Aren't People Getting Vaxxed? Because of Your Hypocrisy | Opinion.
https://www.newsweek.com/why-arent-people-getting-vaxxed-because-your-hypocrisy-opinion-1621574
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline iwlw2

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 211
  • Total likes: 145
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2843 on: August 23, 2021, 03:07:16 PM »
And once again I'll push play on my CD. When you lie by omission, or exaggerate the positive and diminish the negatives in the interest of public health, people will lose trust. This will be branded as "vaccine skepticism" or whatever by many pro vaxxers, yet it will almost certainly be more influential in getting people to vaccinate than anything published by those self-same pro vaxxers who think they are doing the public by exaggerating the benefits and diminishing the risks. I do think he could have been a bit clearer about his conclusions that virtually everyone should get vaccinated.
+100 I agree!

Offline avromie7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 7307
  • Total likes: 1807
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2844 on: August 23, 2021, 03:15:00 PM »
So 2 months of lockdown caused the frum community to move in the opposite direction from addressing its obesity/soda/fast-food problem?
It was more than 2 months, and it let to unhealthy eating habits. This is not about anyone addressing any issues, it's the fact of what happened due to lockdown. It doesn't disappear overnight because the lockdown ended.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 4804
  • Total likes: 5282
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2845 on: August 23, 2021, 03:28:50 PM »
It was more than 2 months, and it let to unhealthy eating habits. This is not about anyone addressing any issues, it's the fact of what happened due to lockdown. It doesn't disappear overnight because the lockdown ended.

It's semantics, really, but lockdown in the frum community lasted from after Purim to Shavuos, which was about 10 weeks. Regardless, I don't think it had nearly as much of an effect on our eating habits as the free boxes which included frozen foods.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14501
  • Total likes: 9855
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2846 on: August 23, 2021, 03:36:08 PM »
It's semantics, really, but lockdown in the frum community lasted from after Purim to Shavuos, which was about 10 weeks. Regardless, I don't think it had nearly as much of an effect on our eating habits as the free boxes which included frozen foods.
and bakery cakes and dips and........
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Euclid

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 3539
  • Total likes: 3574
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2847 on: August 23, 2021, 03:51:27 PM »
and bakery cakes and dips and........
Every time I give this junk away to my long time cleaning lady I feel like it's a bad business decision - I need her alive and in good shape!

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 4804
  • Total likes: 5282
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2848 on: August 23, 2021, 05:24:47 PM »
Every time I give this junk away to my long time cleaning lady I feel like it's a bad business decision - I need her alive and in good shape!

Also bad for when the boxes stop and she asks for a raise to buy more food.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Online Kobe Bryant

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 3321
  • Total likes: 1954
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
    • View Profile
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2849 on: August 23, 2021, 10:05:54 PM »



Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 1036
  • Total likes: 1273
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2850 on: August 24, 2021, 11:50:24 AM »
https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2021/08/23/lets_stop_pretending_about_the_covid-19_vaccines_791050.html
This is slightly long, but I found it to be well-written, honest, and pretty balanced, something sorely lacking in most media these days. @biobook what do you think?
I agree that it's well-written, and the author takes a sensible approach.  And I agree with @avromie7 that the main message is that communication about covid has been deficient. 

I've criticized this here as well as IRL, especially last year, when we were given only few direct presentations from the CDC and relied mostly on various governors to keep us informed.  There were 4 governors we watched on youtube, and I don't want to derail this by mentioning names, but although I appreciated the fact that they were trying to keep us informed, I was often exasperated and yelled at the screen, Stop with the jargon, nobody understands!  You neglected to mention the most important point!  You need a diagram to make that clear!  Just create a simple animation to explain that!  etc.  It surprised me, because these politicians seemed to have access to top notch professionals able to formulate crystal messages in their ads during the election season, and I would have expected them to see the need for better messaging re:covid.

I just came across another situation where communication was poor, the safety cards in airplane seat pockets.  Originally they were mostly text, but to get the message out quickly and unambiguously, they began to rely on pictures.  A few years ago, a survey was given to see how well passengers understood these, and the scores ranged from 18-70%.  Just one example, a picture of a woman removing high heel shoes near an escape slide (to avoid puncturing it) was interpreted by some people to mean one should remove all clothing before jumping onto that slide.  The safety cards have been revised.

My point is that two people hearing the same message can walk away with a very different understanding of it.  And because of this, anybody communicating with a large group has to be aware that the audience members vary in how they will be able to understand your message. So I'm sympathetic with the difficulty of clear communication to an especially large and diverse group, in this case, 300 million Americans with different backgrounds, language use, knowledge of science, etc. 

One part of the solution is to provide simple, direct instructions that every single American can understand, and then provide more nuance for those able to understand it - on the website and in press conferences that get rewritten by journalists.

The author goes through 8 points where he thinks the experts miscommunicated, and explains how he translates that general message from the experts to advice for the individual patients he sees.  His thinking seems rational, and if I disagree with a detail or two, I would consider these in the category of items where reasonable people can disagree because of the lack of data.  (I've ignored the 9th point where he castigates the deliberate misinformation in social media.  Sure, that's wrong, but this clashes with his overall theme of what the experts did wrong, and sounds to me like it came from an editor wanting to see some blame-the-other-side balance.)

But although I agree with him about poor communication and about the need to vaccinate, do more research on treatment, etc, there are two other aspects of his article where I don't see eye to eye with him.  The first is some of the specific instances where he says that the expert advice was not understood.  My question to those who have agreed with this- Do you mean that you personally misunderstood them?  Or that you feel that your family/friends/Americans failed to understand the details of these messages?  The reason I ask is because most of these are topics that were discussed here on DDF, so I would have imagined you yourself knew more about this than the simplified soundbite that some Americans may have relied on.

For example, he starts by saying "Let's stop pretending that the vaccines are 90% effective and that breakthrough infections are rare".  But we've been following the effectiveness numbers in Israel since their first release, and have been posting breakthrough infections.  These have also been discussed in the weekly White House/CDC briefings. 

He says "Letís stop pretending that itís rare for vaccinated people to develop severe Covid-19 or die." Those cases were posted here in May, based on cases reported in the news media. 

He claims people had an "expectation of bulletproof immunity".  Huh?  Who?

He says "Letís stop pretending that a third booster is definitely going to help."  We've been following the graphs from Israel every day here, looking at whether or not the data shows that third booster would help. 

Do you feel you were misinformed on these subjects?  Or is just that you feel that the CDC should have made this more explicit somehow?

There's a second aspect of his article that I'm not sure I'd agree with, but I'll put that in another post. 

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 12185
  • Total likes: 4326
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2851 on: August 24, 2021, 12:05:41 PM »
Do you have to practice to be this ignorant and stupid?

You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline Moshe123

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Sep 2012
  • Posts: 5884
  • Total likes: 639
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Spring Valley
  • Programs: Lost
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2852 on: August 24, 2021, 12:12:37 PM »

Offline iwlw2

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 211
  • Total likes: 145
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2853 on: August 24, 2021, 12:44:59 PM »
But although I agree with him about poor communication and about the need to vaccinate, do more research on treatment, etc, there are two other aspects of his article where I don't see eye to eye with him.  The first is some of the specific instances where he says that the expert advice was not understood.  My question to those who have agreed with this- Do you mean that you personally misunderstood them?  Or that you feel that your family/friends/Americans failed to understand the details of these messages?  The reason I ask is because most of these are topics that were discussed here on DDF, so I would have imagined you yourself knew more about this than the simplified soundbite that some Americans may have relied on.

For example, he starts by saying "Let's stop pretending that the vaccines are 90% effective and that breakthrough infections are rare".  But we've been following the effectiveness numbers in Israel since their first release, and have been posting breakthrough infections.  These have also been discussed in the weekly White House/CDC briefings. 

He says "Letís stop pretending that itís rare for vaccinated people to develop severe Covid-19 or die." Those cases were posted here in May, based on cases reported in the news media. 

He claims people had an "expectation of bulletproof immunity".  Huh?  Who?

He says "Letís stop pretending that a third booster is definitely going to help."  We've been following the graphs from Israel every day here, looking at whether or not the data shows that third booster would help. 

Do you feel you were misinformed on these subjects?  Or is just that you feel that the CDC should have made this more explicit somehow?

I think that his point was most Americans as expressed by seemingly most of the talking points regurgitated on most mainstream media, including the various talking heads such as Fauci etc., if he would only know how informed we are here on DDF.... ;D

And that is the point I think, that there is almost an oversimplification of sorts by Dr. Fauci et al when it comes to coming out with definitive statements such as "This is now a pandemic of the uncaccinated" and the like, almost as if they are afraid that if they are more nuanced about the amount of breakthrough infections etc there are, it will harm their messaging. And perhaps it would for a big segment of the population, but those who are somewhat educated and capable of nuance (like most people here on DDF) just get turned off and distrustful by that kind of thing. Ditto for the complete ignoring of natural immunity.

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 3626
  • Total likes: 9537
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2854 on: August 24, 2021, 12:58:01 PM »
My question to those who have agreed with this- Do you mean that you personally misunderstood them?  Or that you feel that your family/friends/Americans failed to understand the details of these messages?  The reason I ask is because most of these are topics that were discussed here on DDF, so I would have imagined you yourself knew more about this than the simplified soundbite that some Americans may have relied on.


For me, the latter. I think the level of discourse on DDF regarding vaccines and the like (for the most part) is much more nuanced, knowledgable, and fact-based than the average talk on social media, specifically Jewish social media. Some of the frustration is when someone like me who is not an expert and is skeptical of many of the powers that be learns from DDF (and other places) about the efficacy and safety of the vaccines, and then goes out and talks about it with Average Jew informed by WhatsApp and/or Instagram, we get bombarded with many of these claims. It is exceedingly difficult to undo FUD when there is plenty of legitamacy to some of the claims. (Ironically, combatting baseless claims, like the fertility issues, can be even tougher.) 

I think this is the key point of his piece:

Quote
If I speak the truth now, my patients will be more inclined to trust me later

For large segments of our community the issue is one of lost trust in the medical community. IMHO, some of it is deserved, some of it not. If we would be getting more honest talk from public health officials with less whitewashing, and more humility about what is known and unknown due to the newness and ever changing nature of the virus, and the constantly changing data about its treatments and vaccines, there would be more trust. There wold also be more trust if vocal officials would be willing to own up to things they got wrong.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 12185
  • Total likes: 4326
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2855 on: August 24, 2021, 01:04:49 PM »
Very interesting discussion and points made. Keep it up @iwlw2 @biobook @Yehuda57

I want to make one point about telling the patient the whole truth with which I agree with. Patients hear what they want to hear.

Example: Based on cases I have seen your father has 6-8 months. Father dies in less than a month. You told me my father had 6-8 months to live.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2021, 01:17:31 PM by CountValentine »
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 3626
  • Total likes: 9537
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2856 on: August 24, 2021, 01:20:08 PM »
Very interesting discussion any points made. Keep it up @iwlw2 @biobook @Yehuda57

I want to make you point about telling the patient the whole truth with which I agree with. Patients hear what they want to hear.

Example: Based on cases I have seen your father has 6-8 months. Father dies in less than a month. You told me my father had 6-8 months to live.

Just a word on your example, one of the things the Rebbe taught was that a doctor's job is to try to heal the patient, not provide timelines. How many months a person lives is up to G-d. I would disregard any such words from a doctor and ask them to stick to the job at hand without making pronouncements or predictions.

Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14501
  • Total likes: 9855
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2857 on: August 24, 2021, 01:20:11 PM »
Very interesting discussion and points made. Keep it up @iwlw2 @biobook @Yehuda57

I want to make one point about telling the patient the whole truth with which I agree with. Patients hear what they want to hear.

Example: Based on cases I have seen your father has 6-8 months. Father dies in less than a month. You told me my father had 6-8 months to live.

There is most definitely a large amount of nuance expressed that is ignored by some listeners.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14501
  • Total likes: 9855
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2858 on: August 24, 2021, 01:20:46 PM »
Just a word on your example, one of the things the Rebbe taught was that a doctor's job is to try to heal the patient, not provide timelines. How many months a person lives is up to G-d. I would disregard any such words from a doctor and ask them to stick to the job at hand without making pronouncements or predictions.



But his point definitely remains.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 1036
  • Total likes: 1273
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2859 on: August 24, 2021, 01:59:48 PM »

there is almost an oversimplification of sorts by Dr. Fauci et al when it comes to coming out with definitive statements such as "This is now a pandemic of the uncaccinated" and the like, almost as if they are afraid that if they are more nuanced about the amount of breakthrough infections etc there are, it will harm their messaging.
I think that oversimplification is necessary for messaging that the whole country will understand.  But the implication that follows those simple definitive statements is:  The rest is commentary. Go and learn.

And Fauci has been helping us learn.   Last year, he was giving not only soundbites like you mention, but also extended hour-long interviews anywhere he was invited - tv, podcasts, etc. This year, he and Walensky have been giving presentations 2-3 times a week, followed by Q&A from the press.  (Anybody here watch them?  I watched the first few weeks, then felt that I was getting the highlights in less time by reading the newspaper.)

So I feel that the more nuanced messages were always available - This isn't an issue of the CDC or other experts hiding the data.  So the question is, how could they have gotten it out there to more people?  Where else should they have been presenting it?  How could your acquaintances have become better informed (other than by reading DDF of course)?

talks about it with Average Jew informed by WhatsApp and/or Instagram, we get bombarded with many of these claims.
I'm not on WhatsApp or Instagram, so am totally ignorant of what goes on there (except when it's posted here).  And those around me either think like I do or pretend to.

The problem you're identifying doesn't sound like a problem in the way experts are communicating, but rather that others are undercutting that communication.  How do you think the CDC etc should be messaging in a way that would reach those Average Jews?  Or do you think those AJs should be seeking other sources for their information?

(The issue of trust was the second aspect of his article that I wanted to respond to, and will try to write that later tonight.)