Peace In The Middle East Master Thread

[CountValentine]

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. What would you call any other awfully-run territory?

You don't get to play around with the dictionary for your biased rhetorical purposes.

I am the one with bias?
All I see is one side calling it an occupation or open-air prison. The other side says it is not.
Ok so I ask that side what they call it? That is having a bias?
If I lived there, I would say the word I could come up would be prison. I can be totally off base.

[CountValentine]

1) I don't know what name exactly. I view it as a hostile enemy state that should be conquered (and occupied, ironically enough).

Honesty is good. This was never a gotcha question. I mostly agree with you.

2) Probably prison

That is what I came up with. So again we mostly agree.

3) Now? No to both.

We agree again.

[smurf]

Is the Us an open air prison?
I can't come ang go as I please.
The Canadians ask me so many questions every time i visit.
Some other countries even require a Visa for me to visit.
When returning i need to clear border control and my bags are subject to inspection.

And my utilities are "controlled" by big companies, who threaten to cut it off if i don't pay them.
I wish someone offered me free utilities with the only string attached is to please not kill them.

[CountValentine]

Is the Us an open air prison?
I can't come ang go as I please.
The Canadians ask me so many questions every time i visit.
Some other countries even require a Visa for me to visit.
When returning i need to clear border control and my bags are subject to inspection.

And my utilities are "controlled" by big companies, who threaten to cut it off if i don't pay them.
I wish someone offered me free utilities with the only string attached is to please not kill them.

I will take as if you or trying to be funny.

[smurf]

I will take as if you or trying to be funny.

The example was meant to be a joke, but the argument is serious.

We all live under certain "conditions".
We are blessed to live in a great democratic country, so those conditions are hardly restrictive.
Also we get along with our neighbors so we have great international mobility.

But if your government is a terrorist org that you voted in, don't expect your neighbors to cut you any slack, especially neighbors you have sworn to kill

[smurf]

What name would you give it?
If you lived there, what would you call it?

Yes, Hamas is the governing body of Gaza. Would Israel allow them to build factories and airports?

They were gifted an Airport and planes, if not for the second intifada (and subsequent attacks) they would still have them.
Airports are the first target you strike when someone is launching attacks at you.

As for factories.
They were gifted an entire agricultural industry when Israel forced Israelis out of gush katif.

They have plundered and destroyed every gift given to them.
Even if Israels restrictions are holding them back, they've had more then enough time and opportunity and global support to build better living conditions.
You can blame the Palestinians as a whole, or chose to blame Hamas specifically, but don't try to blame Israel

[CountValentine]

The example was meant to be a joke, but the argument is serious.

The argument/debate is over. Only one person would answer the question.

[Boruch999]

The argument/debate is over. Only one person would answer the question.

Sorry I'm late to the party.

Gaza is a very large area. 141 sq miles according to Google. That is many, many times bigger than any prison. It has very few if any of the characteristics of a prison. At best, prison is a poor analogy.

I don't know if there is a better analogy contained in any one English word, but that is not a reason to use a poor analogy.

(Is Planet Earth a prison? Very, very difficult for anyone to leave, impossible to import manufactured goods of any kind.)

The term is used to demonize Israel. It is used to deflect attention from the primary cause of the suffering of the people of Gaza, which is Hamas, whose leadership is (or at least was until recently) supported by a large portion of the people of Gaza.

Gaza is a territory that is under embargo because the people who run it are trying their best to murder the citizens of a neighboring territory en masse.

[CountValentine]

The term is used to demonize Israel.

This is the problem and I agree that many will use it that way.
That does not change the facts on the ground and your input is always welcomed.

[CountValentine]

Where do Gazan's get their news from? Are they aware of what Hamas did?

[WayBackMachine]

Where do Gazan's get their news from? Are they aware of what Hamas did?

go pro feeds

[aygart]

Where do Gazan's get their news from? Are they aware of what Hamas did?

go pro feeds

https://claritywithmichaeloren.substack.com/p/why-the-body-cams

[AYHG]

I am the one with bias?
All I see is one side calling it an occupation or open-air prison. The other side says it is not.
Ok so I ask that side what they call it? That is having a bias?
If I lived there, I would say the word I could come up would be prison. I can be totally off base.

When not under self-induced bombardment (Jihadi armed conflict against Israel's civilian population is supported by a solid majority of Gaza's population consistently by polling), which is 99+% of the time, the living conditions in Gaza are no worse than that of any other badly-run country under deeply corrupt-government rule, e.g. Most of Africa and Asia. Is half the world "an open-air prison?

Most references to Gaza being an "open air prison" and "occupied" (even post Oct 7) are descriptions of Gaza in non-war time, not to describe the current conditions. That is why antisemites and radical leftists use it to justify (or to provide "context," for those who prefer to hide their biases behind pseudo-intellectual veneers) Hamas's actions.

I was referring to those who use the term, but now that you mention it, yes, I think asking, "what would you call it?" reveals some bias, at least a bias to rush to the defense of leftist media. It's difficult for me to believe that you seriously think it necessary for media to have one-line descriptions for places.

Person A: Chicago is a prison!
Person B: Well actually, it's not.
Person A: Disagree? But then what else would you call it.... See, that's why I called it a prison. I just couldn't come up with a better description for a crime-ridden, foul-smelling metropolis.

There's a willingness by many to promote false and dangerous rhetoric, creating a narrative that provides cover for Hamas and excuses those demonstrating in the streets for Jewish blood.

[CountValentine]

When not under self-induced bombardment (Jihadi armed conflict against Israel's civilian population is supported by a solid majority of Gaza's population consistently by polling), which is 99+% of the time, the living conditions in Gaza are no worse than that of any other badly-run country under deeply corrupt-government rule, e.g. Most of Africa and Asia. Is half the world "an open-air prison?

Either way, most references to "open air prison" and "occupation" are used as a general description of Gaza in non-war time, not to describe the current conditions. That is why antisemites and radical leftists use it to justify (or to provide "context," for those who prefer to hide their biases behind pseudo-intellectual veneers) Hamas's actions.

I was referring to those who use the term, but now that you mention it, yes, I think asking, "what would you call it?" reveals some bias, at least a bias to rush to the defense of leftist media. It's difficult for me to believe that you seriously think it necessary for media to have one-line descriptions for places.

Person A: Chicago is a prison!
Person B: Well actually, it's not.
Person A: Disagree? But then what else would you call it.... See, that's why I called it a prison. I just couldn't come up with a better description for a crime-ridden, foul-smelling metropolis.

There's a willingness by many to promote false and dangerous rhetoric, creating a narrative that provides cover for Hamas and excuses those demonstrating in the streets for Jewish blood.

Look at what @Yehuda57 and I eventually agreed on. This is not about demonizing Israel. It is not to provide cover for Hamas or explain away what they did.

I live in Chicago. I will call it dangerous. Now if you want to call it call Chicago a prison I will agree if you agree Gaza is Attica!

You talk about dangerous rhetoric then how about the ignorant college kids that chant the river/sea/free? They are labeled as wanting to kill every Jew.

So yes, there is dangerous rhetoric, but it is from all over.

[CountValentine]

Why won't Israel give a count on how many Gazan's were killed in the refugee camps?
They won't even give an estimate, but they know exactly how terrorist were killed 150 below ground.

[Yehuda57]

Person A: Chicago is a prison!
Person B: Well actually, it's not.
Person A: Disagree? But then what else would you call it.... See, that's why I called it a prison. I just couldn't come up with a better description for a crime-ridden, foul-smelling metropolis.

You quite clearly misunderstood CV, as did I initially. But I think over a few posts he demonstrated that his question was a genuine interst in how to refer to it in a way that *doesn't* demonize Israel but still reflects the reality on the ground. I couldn't come up with a term, and it seems so far no one else had either.

[CountValentine]

You quite clearly misunderstood CV, as did I initially. But I think over a few posts he demonstrated that his question was a genuine interst in how to refer to it in a way that *doesn't* demonize Israel but still reflects the reality on the ground. I couldn't come up with a term, and it seems so far no one else had either.

Might have to change "Mr DDF Damage Control" to "CV Spokesperson". I am going to be up front that I don't pay as much.

[AYHG]

Not everyone chanting river/sea/free is an ignorant college kid.
I'm sorry if I actually believe that they intend what they're saying. I don't ascribe to the radical leftist academic dictum that proclaims that we must not believe an individual's expressed intentions when it causes cognitive dissonance.

This cognitive dissonance, I think, stems from a basic tenet in the halls of academia that all people and cultures are of equal value, and the desires of all people are basically the same. What follows, therefore, is that when somebody expresses gruesome desires (that even those who don't believe in objective morality must admit is immoral), the leftist-minded individual tenaciously latches onto one of two responses. Either:
a) Denial, i.e. they don't actually believe that, or
b) The people they're targeting must deserve it.
The high-brow, pseudo-intellectual version of this is a combination of both. This is where the vaulted "context" comes into play to excuse grisly realities around the world, you pick the issue. "They don't really believe what they're saying, they're just foolish plebian folks," and at the same time, "what do you expect from them after they saw those images of the poor suffering Palestinians.... Israel is definitely guilty here as well." 

I don't think anyone implied that all those individual protesters would personally murder all the jews in Israel, and there likely are some college students just parroting. But forgive me for believing that, as a whole, they would rejoice if the Israelis where all driven into the sea tomorrow and all the land became 'Palestine'.

[Yehuda57]

Might have to change "Mr DDF Damage Control" to "CV Spokesperson". I am going to be up front that I don't pay as much.

Typical antisemite thinks we only do things for the money.

*I'm still waiting for my Damage Control checks to come in, who do I tag?

[CountValentine]

Not everyone chanting river/sea/free is an ignorant college kid.
I'm sorry if I actually believe that they intend what they're saying. I don't ascribe to the radical leftist academic dictum that proclaims that we must not believe an individual's expressed intentions when it causes cognitive dissonance.

Lets go full stop and help me and the ignorant college kids understand. Let me stay first I have seen a ton of interviews with these kids and not one of them wants to kill Jews.

When/where did this phrase start/originate?