Will you get the booster shot?

[CountValentine]

The job of the board and executives is to bring maximum profits to the shareholders.

[AsherO]

The job of the board and executives is to bring maximum profits to the shareholders.

At this point it might also be to keep the stock price from falling further. Omricon spiked PFE stock ~5% a few times, but it kept losing most of those gains and has leveled out. Reports that Omricon might be a (more contagious but) less severe strain, could in fact push the stock down. These statements from the company might be an attempt to mitigate that downward sentiment.

[biobook]

Theres something I dont really understand, maybe someone wiser or more knowledgeable ( @biobook ? ) can explain it to me. IIUC the booster is the same as the first two shots, except that the they found the efficacy decreases over time, hence the need for a booster. So how on earth could Pfizer say that 3 shots is effective vs. omicron and not two, wouldn't someone who recently had the two have the exact same protection as someone who had 3?? 

You lookin' over my shoulder?  (I just got the booster in that shoulder, less than 48 hours ago.)

Yes, the booster is the same type and dose as the original shots. 

There are two ways to get a handle on efficacy: 
1. Give the shots, and wait to see how many vaxed people come down with covid.
2. Give the shots, take blood from vaxed people, and analyze their blood in the lab to see if the antibodies they produce actually neutralize the virus.

The first is what we really care about, but it can take months to get an answer, since we have to wait for vaxed people to actually come in contact with an infected person who transmits the virus. 

The second gets answers much more quickly, and that's what Pfizer recently did.  They gave boosters to people who had had the 2 shots more than 6 months ago, and found that a few weeks later, their blood does have antibodies that can neutralize the new omicron variant, much more than people who only had the 2 shots 6 months ago. 3 weeks earlier.

I don't know if anyone has tested the specific situation you mention, whether the blood of someone who very recently completed the 2-dose shots has antibodies that neutralize omicron in the lab.   I just read the Pfizer release, and it sounds like this was their control, so I just revised the previous paragraph.

But Pfizer also says that while this is a good sign, we still need to wait to see the results of the first question.  That is, do these increased effective antibodies in the lab studies actually translate into a lower incidence of covid for these boosted people living in the real world. 

Boosters are common for other vaccinations as well.  Somehow, the first shot "primes" the system which takes time to mature, and subsequent shots can activate it to produce antibodies at a much higher level.  A certain amount of time has to pass for this maturation to occur, so it wouldn't work for people to just get 3 shots in one day, or even one month.

[AsherO]

Thanks @biobook, was waiting for you to weigh in.

Two comments on your post, not directed at you.

1. Besides for neutralizing antibodies, there are other other aspects of the immune system (like B- and T-cells) which is why even someone with waning antibodies from infection/vaccination will have some protection against future infection (and likely Omricon as well), it’s too soon to know
how much.
2. Even with data on many millions of infections, it’s been proven impossible to pinpoint the efficacy of an existing vaccine on a new variant, when it comes to preventing infections. Even in highly vaccinated societies there have been significant Delta waves. We don’t really know how much worse things would/wouldn’t be in absolute case-count-terms, had the population been unvaccinated.

[biobook]

So how on earth could Pfizer say that 3 shots is effective vs. omicron and not two, wouldn't someone who recently had the two have the exact same protection as someone who had 3?? 

@iwlw2 I just realized that this discussion referred to a NYT article and Pfizer PR so I read that and revised what I answered above.  I think the answer to your question is that time is needed for maturation of the immune response.  The original protocol did allow for a time delay, but only 3 or 4 weeks (Pfizer, Moderna).  At the time, some people argued that a longer delay would allow the second dose to be more effective, and Canada and UK did space out the two doses more, something like 8-12 weeks between doses.  This idea wasn't uniformly accepted, because it would greatly increase the number of people getting infected during that 8-12 week interval before the second dose.

So the current booster, given 6 months after the previous shot, is stimulating a more mature immune system than shot #2, which was given only 3-4 weeks after the previous one, and that might explain why it rapidly increases neutralizing antibodies as measured in the lab.   

[yelped]

@iwlw2 I just realized that this discussion referred to a NYT article and Pfizer PR so I read that and revised what I answered above.  I think the answer to your question is that time is needed for maturation of the immune response.  The original protocol did allow for a time delay, but only 3 or 4 weeks (Pfizer, Moderna).  At the time, some people argued that a longer delay would allow the second dose to be more effective, and Canada and UK did space out the two doses more, something like 8-12 weeks between doses.  This idea wasn't uniformly accepted, because it would greatly increase the number of people getting infected during that 8-12 week interval before the second dose.

So the current booster, given 6 months after the previous shot, is stimulating a more mature immune system than shot #2, which was given only 3-4 weeks after the previous one, and that might explain why it rapidly increases neutralizing antibodies as measured in the lab.

Understood, but why are they pushing for a 4th booster shot beyond the 3rd initial booster which would have been 6 months after the initial 2 shots?

[biobook]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/08/health/pfizer-booster-omicron.html

Is it just me or is it clear as day how Pfizer is trying to structure/present studies to drive a narrative that promotes a booster shot?

I agree with your cynicism, and when I read that NYT article yesterday, my response was: 39 samples?  They conducted the original clinical trial on 44,000 people, yet could find only 39 people to test now?  Not very convincing.

OTOH, epidemiologists seem to agree that boosters are valuable right now, given that delta's still around, so there may be enough reason to boost even without this company PR. 

[biobook]

Understood, but why are they pushing for a 4th booster shot beyond the 3rd initial booster which would have been 6 months after the initial 2 shots?

Where do you see that?

ETA:  Are you referring to the planned omicron-specific shot?  That's similar to the flu vaccine, which gets a new version each year as the flu virus mutates, and SARS-cov-2 seems to mutate much faster, so that would be a slightly different vaccine.

It's still not clear that it will be needed, but Pfizer is starting to make it anyway.  If the next few weeks show that omicron is not serious, that vaccine will probably not be distributed.  Pfizer has done this already twice (began production of a new vaccine for a variant, then tossed it out when that variant turned out to not be serious.)

[iwlw2]

I agree with your cynicism, and when I read that NYT article yesterday, my response was: 39 samples?  They conducted the original clinical trial on 44,000 people, yet could find only 39 people to test now?  Not very convincing.

OTOH, epidemiologists seem to agree that boosters are valuable right now, given that delta's still around, so there may be enough reason to boost even without this company PR.

First of all thank you for your responses, your knowledge and clarity are as always helpful.
Secondly, just to reiterate your point, no doubt that boosters are very helpful and should be encouraged (certainly in the higher risk population or those that did not have covid, as vaccination antibodies seem to weaken after some time). My original question which you partially answered though was why Pfizer was saying (and granted I didnt do nor could I do your level of research, this is solely from what I heard Bourla saying on the radio) that they find that 3 shots works against omicron even though 2 shots have a marked decrease in efficacy. I appreciate what you are saying in terms of stimulating a more mature antibody response. However wouldnt or shouldnt the research then be focused on changing the interval between the shots to find the right balance rather than just pushing more shots ad infinitum? Appropos to what some were saying upthread, that just smells of a vested interest in more shots.
ETA: Upon reading the linked NYT article a bit more carefully, it is in fact saying what I heard, that multiple studies are finding that two shots are not providing much protection, but now Pfizer says 3 shots do. If its simply a matter of spacing them out, I would think thats the area that should be explored. It just seems to conveneient for Pfizer to "discover" that an additional shot is what makes the difference.

[biobook]

(and granted I didnt do nor could I do your level of research, this is solely from what I heard Bourla saying on the radio)

I didn't do any extensive research, just read the NYT article plus the Pfizer press release that they linked to.  Pfizer didn't produce a standard research article, and there is very little information in the PR.

If its simply a matter of spacing them out, I would think thats the area that should be explored.

If we were all willing to isolate in our basements for the next five years, then Pfizer could take that time to do a variety of experiments manipulating the dose and the spacing of subsequent shots to find the optimal covid vaccine.  I remember various experts being asked about this last year, when the first vaccine came out - Should we allow more time between shots?  Would a lower dose lead to fewer side effects? - and their answer was "This works.  We know this works.  And this is what we need to use right now."  That is, if we waited to perfect the vaccine, too many of us would not be alive to get it.

It just seems to conveneient for Pfizer to "discover" that an additional shot is what makes the difference.

I think it sounds like a "discovery" to us, because we're not involved in research in that area.  But many vaccines require a booster for optimal efficiency, and I don't think the announcement was a surprise to those working on vaccines.  And remember, Bourla himself is saying that he doesn't know if the booster-induced antibodies will be reflected in protection from omicron outside of the lab.  The first cases reported from Israel of omicron infection included someone returning from a conference who had gotten the 2+booster shots.

[AsherO]

I don’t think Pfizer is manufacturing an Omricon-specific booster, see the last few paragraphs of the NYT article. They say that can turn it around in ~95 days, and either have it ready to go or are developing it. The takeaway I got from the article is that at this point Pfizer is pushing their current vaccine formulation as a booster.

[ExGingi]

https://twitter.com/segal_eran/status/1473392484269137920?s=20

https://twitter.com/GLZRadio/status/1473390297052856325?s=20

[WonderingYid]

I like to stick away from experimental drugs, unless necessary.

[S209]

I like to stick away from experimental drugs, unless necessary.

Wrong thread then.

[Shmulie]

Trump got the booster

https://twitter.com/NoSpinNews/status/1472934353583984641

[aygart]

I like to stick away from experimental drugs, unless necessary.

Good thing that the vaccines are past trial stage.

[CountValentine]

Trump got the booster

...and got booed by his own supporters. Thats how nuts these people are.

[ExGingi]

https://twitter.com/segal_eran/status/1473392484269137920?s=20

https://twitter.com/glzradio/status/1473402509930684417?s=21

I have been saying for quite a while that COVID-19 is the politician's opium.

It struck me that the above "suggestions" sound very much like symptoms of addiction. Needing more and more at a greater frequency.

Disclaimer (for those that need it): NOT medical advice or opinion.

[PlatinumGuy]

Got 3rd end of August, will take 4th in a month or so

[aygart]

CNBC: WHO says vaccine booster programs will prolong Covid crisis: 'No country can boost its way out of the pandemic'.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/22/who-says-covid-vaccine-booster-programs-will-prolong-pandemic.html