NY Times vs. Chassidim

[biobook]

If the yeshivas aren't the medium through which the state can enforce that, then this is already a huge win. It will be much harder for the DOE to go after the parents, it's much easier to fine and close down schools.

I would have thought the opposite.  Ordering a school to close and ordering parents to re-register their children elsewhere would be a major undertaking, and not something that DOE would expect could happen quickly.  It would be much simpler to go after one parent... then another... and another.  Each one is just a $10 fine or 10 days in jail.

Aside from the enforcement, the regulations remain as proposed by DOE.  Instead of the yeshiva being responsible for providing the education, each parent is responsible for showing the DOE that their child is acquiring a substantially equivalent education, either at the yeshiva, at home, at some other venue, or by hiring tutors.  I would think that's a much greater burden on the parent, to figure out how and where to provide that education, rather than "outsourcing" it to a single yeshiva.

[gozalim]

the big benefit of it is, the yeshiva itself isn't the required 'vector' of that education, so the parent can't be penalized for enrolling there, only for something else they did/did not do in their own time.
so YAFFED goal of having yeshiva be the vector of prosecution falls apart

[biobook]

the big benefit of it is, the yeshiva itself isn't the required 'vector' of that education, so the parent can't be penalized for enrolling there, only for something else they did/did not do in their own time.
so YAFFED goal of having yeshiva be the vector of prosecution falls apart

Yaffed, Shmaffed.  The goal of the lawsuit wasn't to retaliate against Yaffed.

The parents can't be penalized for enrolling their child in a yeshiva, but if that yeshiva is not providing substantially equivalent education, then they have to give their child that education elsewhere, and convince DOE that they're doing that.  How do you see that happening?

[TBD]

Yaffed, Shmaffed.  The goal of the lawsuit wasn't to retaliate against Yaffed.

The parents can't be penalized for enrolling their child in a yeshiva, but if that yeshiva is not providing substantially equivalent education, then they have to give their child that education elsewhere, and convince DOE that they're doing that.  How do you see that happening?

PEARLS will give out a handbook with a curriculum and all parents will confirm to the DOE that each night from 12 AM to 4 AM we home school our children all the subjects and shalom al yisroel

[imayid2]

The parents can't be penalized for enrolling their child in a yeshiva, but if that yeshiva is not How do you see that happening?

The amount of resources that would be needed to go after each parent individually is incomparable.

[biobook]

PEARLS will give out a handbook with a curriculum and all parents will confirm to the DOE that each night from 12 AM to 4 AM we home school our children all the subjects and shalom al yisroel

The DOE has regulations for home schooling, which have been on the books for years.  What you've described would not pass muster.

The amount of resources that would be needed to go after each parent individually is incomparable.

Do they need to go after each and every parent?

[EliJelly]

I would have thought the opposite.  Ordering a school to close and ordering parents to re-register their children elsewhere would be a major undertaking, and not something that DOE would expect could happen quickly.  It would be much simpler to go after one parent... then another... and another.  Each one is just a $10 fine or 10 days in jail.

Really?? That would be extremely impractical. Firstly, administering tests outside of a school system isn't an easy feat, and by a school you can measure overall performance comparing to other schools/public schools. How do you you measure performance of an individual child? For every Jewish child lagging behind there would a dozen of public school kids who fare worse. Would they gather stats from multiple Hasidic families? What makes them as one body if they're not undergoing the same program for secular studies? If they gonna look for curriculum then any mother can produce a beautiful curriculum she teaches every night after supper, and a smart boy can be well prepared too when the family is being notified to be reviewed. It's true that the regulations remain the same and the legal effort must continue but enforcement plays a huge role here. 

[shapsam]

An important point which was not mentioned here, this ruling makes it that the state cannot withhold funding from any schools. Whichever way you look at it, this is not working out the way YAFFED wanted it to, that itself is a big victory.

[randomjay]

I would have thought the opposite.  Ordering a school to close and ordering parents to re-register their children elsewhere would be a major undertaking, and not something that DOE would expect could happen quickly.  It would be much simpler to go after one parent... then another... and another.  Each one is just a $10 fine or 10 days in jail.

Aside from the enforcement, the regulations remain as proposed by DOE.  Instead of the yeshiva being responsible for providing the education, each parent is responsible for showing the DOE that their child is acquiring a substantially equivalent education, either at the yeshiva, at home, at some other venue, or by hiring tutors.  I would think that's a much greater burden on the parent, to figure out how and where to provide that education, rather than "outsourcing" it to a single yeshiva.

DOE has no interest in enforcing this. As long the argument was that they cannot allow a huge School “system” to operate without proper education, they had to do something, but going after individuals is a different story.

[aygart]

The amount of resources that would be needed to go after each parent individually is incomparable.

In addition to political capital

[TBD]

From their response it sounds that its a huge win for our community

"Beatrice Weber, executive director of Young Advocates for Fair Education, which filed an amicus brief in support of the Education Department, and a mom of 10 children who left her Hasidic community, said she had “very mixed feelings” about the decision.

“On the one hand, we’re grateful the regulations were upheld: There is no violation of religious rights to have an education, and that’s been outlined clearly,” said Weber. “But when you take away the enforcement mechanism, you’re really pulling the rug out from under your feet on how to make this happen.”"

[Yehuda57]

Yaffed, Shmaffed.  The goal of the lawsuit wasn't to retaliate against Yaffed.

Everything going on now, from the law changes to the NYT campaign, is the result of Yaffed lobbying.

[gozalim]

Yaffed, Shmaffed.  The goal of the lawsuit wasn't to retaliate protect against Yaffed.

[gozalim]

From their response it sounds that its a huge win for our community

"Beatrice Weber, executive director of Young Advocates for Fair Education, which filed an amicus brief in support of the Education Department, and a mom of 10 children who left her Hasidic community, said she had “very mixed feelings” about the decision.

“On the one hand, we’re grateful the regulations were upheld: There is no violation of religious rights to have an education, and that’s been outlined clearly,” said Weber. “But when you take away the enforcement mechanism, you’re really pulling the rug out from under your feet on how to make this happen.”"

my grandmother used to say
" it's a good policy, all the right people are upset "

[S209]

It's very, very long, and entirely not worth it. The people tasked with answering the question, "How Can a Religious Person Justify Being a Slumlord?" - itself a wildly antisemitic and bigotted premise - include Shmarya Rosenburg, Samuel Heilman, Jill Jacobs.

Here is one quote from Heilman, by far not the most objectionable comment, but it happened to be on the page that was open: (emphasis mine)

Much more inflammatory than the actual article was the cover image.. a massive black hat perched atop a run-down apartment building.

[Alexsei]

Rabbi CD Zweibel in an interview on Kol Mevaser
אינטערוויו: די סופרים קאורט אין אלבאני האט ארויסגעגעבן א פסק בנוגע די גזירת החינוך אין ניו יארק, אויפן אנקלאגע וואס איז אריינגעגעבן געווארן דורך די ארגאנאזאציעס: פערלס, אגו"י, תורה ומסורה, ישיבת חיים בערלין, תורה ודעת און נאך, די פסק איז א געמישטע, הרב חיים דוד צוויבל טוט אויסקלארן די וואסערן  https://www.yiddish24.com/interviews/12/81064

[biobook]

Whichever way you look at it, this is not working out the way YAFFED wanted it to, that itself is a big victory.

From their response it sounds that its a huge win for our community

Yaffed, Shmaffed.  The goal of the lawsuit wasn't to retaliate protect against Yaffed.

Everything going on now, from the law changes to the NYT campaign, is the result of Yaffed lobbying.

Yes, I realize that Moster and Yaffed started it all, but it's misguided to view the current lawsuit as Yeshivas v. Yaffed.  Yaffed let the cat out of the bag, but since it's now common knowledge that some yeshivas don't offer significant secular education, others may well continue to agitate for change, even if Yaffed were to disband today.

If you see a fire start in a house, you can grab a fire extinguisher, go for the water, get everyone out... or get angry at the match that started it all.  If we saw someone stomping on the match when the house is on fire, I think we'd agree that's not a profitable response.

Characterizing the decision as a win over Yaffed might make people feel better, but it sounds to me like it's misdirecting their attention from dealing with the reality of the situation.

[biobook]

Rabbi CD Zweibel in an interview on Kol Mevaser
אינטערוויו: די סופרים קאורט אין אלבאני האט ארויסגעגעבן א פסק בנוגע די גזירת החינוך אין ניו יארק, אויפן אנקלאגע וואס איז אריינגעגעבן געווארן דורך די ארגאנאזאציעס: פערלס, אגו"י, תורה ומסורה, ישיבת חיים בערלין, תורה ודעת און נאך, די פסק איז א געמישטע, הרב חיים דוד צוויבל טוט אויסקלארן די וואסערן  https://www.yiddish24.com/interviews/12/81064

If you listened to this, can you summarize what he said?

[biobook]

Firstly, administering tests outside of a school system isn't an easy feat, and by a school you can measure overall performance comparing to other schools/public schools. How do you you measure performance of an individual child?

The current regulations for homeschooling parents includes assessments, such as administering tests outside of a school (or in one).  These are nationwide standardized tests, so performance isn't compared to other yeshivas or to public schools, but rather to the general performance of, say, 4th graders, nationwide.

If they gonna look for curriculum then any mother can produce a beautiful curriculum she teaches every night after supper, and a smart boy can be well prepared too when the family is being notified to be reviewed.

It has to be a bit more formal than a mother deciding what she wants to do tonight after supper, but I think TBD is right, that PEARLS could come up with a curriculum for each grade, which each parent would then submit as their planned curriculum.  (But not at 12-4 AM!)

[Alexsei]

Couldn't agree more with that @biobook .

Rabbi Zweibel basically said that he cannot say that this is exciting news but it's also not bad news, he also said he wants to make parents aware that they will have to put in some effort to satisfy the requirements of homeschooling by supplementing whatever is not taught in their school of choice.

In Quebec most religious children are already homeschooled under the auspices of the local school boards, while Quebec is not to be compared to NY it still shows us how something like that can work out.