(False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery

[imayid2]

That has nothing to do with saying that saying they were mistaken is hateful

[Unusual]

Is there a reading comprehension issue here?

Claiming victim status is hateful, claiming they were mistaken isn't. Is the difference not obvious?

[gozalim]

Is there a reading comprehension issue here?

Claiming victim status is hateful, claiming they were mistaken isn't. Is the difference not obvious?

claiming they were mistaken is no more hateful than claiming they were justified and the people they were hounding were guilty as charged
is the Alter Rebbe less Gadol than the Gra? is casting aspersions on the former less reason for followers to be angered than the latter?

[imayid2]

claiming they were mistaken is no more hateful than claiming they were justified and the people they were hounding were guilty as charged
is the Alter Rebbe less Gadol than the Gra? is casting aspersions on the former less reason for followers to be angered than the latter?

There are different ways of saying they were “mistaken”.

To say that there was nothing at all there that they would’ve disagreed with, everything was one big mistake and they were hoodwinked, is making them out to be a bunch of dodos. It’s another story to say that while much of the behaviors and activities being described were indeed taking place in various groups (as clearly documented), but they’re characterization of it wasn’t necessarily accurate.

Do you see the difference? It is not a black and white “were they justified and everyone was guilty as charged, or they were totally on the dark and egregiously mistaken” as you insist on drawing it.

[aygart]

claiming they were mistaken is no more hateful than claiming they were justified and the people they were hounding were guilty as charged
is the Alter Rebbe less Gadol than the Gra? is casting aspersions on the former less reason for followers to be angered than the latter?

I agree with your point, but there are those who compare the GRA to rishonim such as the Ramban so there may not be comparison specifically, but it is entirely irrelevant to our conversation.

[aygart]

There are different ways of saying they were “mistaken”.

To say that there was nothing at all there that they would’ve disagreed with, everything was one big mistake and they were hoodwinked, is making them out to be a bunch of dodos. It’s another story to say that while much of the behaviors and activities being described were indeed taking place in various groups (as clearly documented), but they’re characterization of it wasn’t necessarily accurate.

Do you see the difference? It is not a black and white “were they justified or egregiously mistaken” as you insist on drawing it.

The most likely answer is somewhere between like in most cases.

[gozalim]

There are different ways of saying they were “mistaken”.

To say that there was nothing at all there that they would’ve disagreed with, everything was one big mistake and they were hoodwinked, is making them out to be a bunch of dodos. It’s another story to say that while much of the behaviors and activities being described were indeed taking place in various groups (as clearly documented), but they’re characterization of it wasn’t necessarily accurate.

Do you see the difference? It is not a black and white “were they justified and everyone was guilty as charged, or they were totally on the dark and egregiously mistaken” as you insist on drawing it.

running a ח over the actual true part is a worse accusation here, saying they were lied to, not just mischaracterized is a defense

[Unusual]

Again, you are conflating the redifos with the difference of opinion. They are not the same.

What exactly does the word 'they' mean? The ones that put them in jail? Reb Chaim Volozhiner who wrote the text explaining the shita of Hisnagdus?

Nobody cast any aspersions on the Ba'al Hatanya. The idea that he was not alone, and he needed others to protect his legacy from being tarnished, is not reason to be angered. Nobody exists alone, the Gra also cannot last without a Peri Megadim, Mesilas Yeshorim, Maharsha, or other Poskim, Sifrei Mussar, or Hanhagas Haklal.

Nobody exists alone, all of us need each other. That is not 'hateful' or 'casting aspersions'.

And your 'some will say' is poppycock. Nobody serious says anything bad about the Ba'al Hatanya, and if you don't know that, you are really living under a rock.

[imayid2]

And your 'some will say' is poppycock. Nobody serious says anything bad about the Ba'al Hatanya, and if you don't know that, you are really living under a rock.

I think he meant the opposite, that some in Chabad would compare him to tanaaim IIUC

[gozalim]

Again, you are conflating the redifos with the difference of opinion. They are not the same.

What exactly does the word 'they' mean? The ones that put them in jail? Reb Chaim Volozhiner who wrote the text explaining the shita of Hisnagdus?

Nobody cast any aspersions on the Ba'al Hatanya. The idea that he was not alone, and he needed others to protect his legacy from being tarnished, is not reason to be angered. Nobody exists alone, the Gra also cannot last without a Peri Megadim, Mesilas Yeshorim, Maharsha, or other Poskim, Sifrei Mussar, or Hanhagas Haklal.

Nobody exists alone, all of us need each other. That is not 'hateful' or 'casting aspersions'.

And your 'some will say' is poppycock. Nobody serious says anything bad about the Ba'al Hatanya, and if you don't know that, you are really living under a rock.

you honestly can't see anything other than curiosity in you question? and the responses are hateful? do you see no equivalence?
I tried to spoonfed it....

(ignore the "some will say. that was going a whole other direction, not to your point, and you completely misunderstood it, so I removed it)

[Unusual]

Yes, I went through my responses, and I haven't seen any hate or anger.

The only way you can see 'hate' in my responses is if you have unreasonable demands. If you claim the Ba'al Hatanya is a Tanna and someone else calls him an Amora and you call him hateful, you would be only slightly caricaturing your (and Dan's) responses to me.

[gozalim]

Reb Chaim Volozhiner who wrote the text explaining the shita of Hisnagdus?

IIUC he is considered as having abstained from the Redifos

I assume nobody is complaining about differences of opinion

[Unusual]

Ok.

Now, can you accept that the hisnagdus of people like Reb Chaim Volozhiner, along with the actual polemics (not the redifos) benefitted Chassidim? Not if it is true, but is it insulting to the Baal Shem Tov, the Mezritcher Magid, or the Ba'al Hatanya, if that were true? Or do you appreciate how Klal Yisroel are interconnected, and everyone needs everyone else, even if we disagree on some details?

[gozalim]

claiming they were mistaken is no more hateful than claiming they were justified and the people they were hounding were guilty as charged

is this the line you're having trouble with?
Let me clarify:
The Redifos (ח, מסירה , etc) and their authorization, in my opinion those were caused by being fed lies.
you certainly called that chutzpah, and seem to have called that hateful.

at the same time, you are so confident in the accuracy of those events that you insist that they were justified, yet you are shocked that that would be viewed as anything but curiosity.

which part of the equivalence are you missing?

[gozalim]

Now, can you accept that the hisnagdus of people like Reb Chaim Volozhiner, along with the actual polemics (not the redifos) benefitted Chassidim?

No.
I insist it's a Factual inaccuracy that has at times been perpetuated, at times maliciously.

revisionist history

[EliJelly]

Ok let's just go with the Chafetz Chaim z"l.. This is a great benefit indeed

Printed in קובץ מאמרים לרבי אלחנן ווסרמן

[gozalim]

is it insulting to the Baal Shem Tov, the Mezritcher Magid, or the Ba'al Hatanya, if that were true?

Insulting the many Gedolei olam the אריות שבחבורה the Talmidim of The Bal Shem Tov, Magid is to say that the Redifos which were perpetrated on them (mentioned in my post) are justified

[Chuchum Ainer]

Wow, I check out for a day and come back to 4 new pages of discussion in one of the weirdest and most painful threads on DDF (that I'm aware of).

I'm not going to get too involved here, especially since many people seem to be lacking in communication skills, which makes it hard to have even the illusion of an honest debate. (If I have no idea what you're saying, how am I supposed to respond?)

But two thoughts:

I don't really get when this discussion became focused on the question of "did chassidus benefit from the hisnagdus at all" (was this part of a different thread which got merged here?), but anyway, I have no problem with saying something like that, just as I have no problem saying how if not for Haman we wouldn't have Purim, and we need to recognize the debt we owe him. (y'all can take that as sarcastic as you wish. or not at all.)

Personally I think a lot of the resistance among chassidim to that idea is that it's easily intended as the conclusion or preface to some random attack or the justification of one.

I did read somewhere that the Magid of Mezritch told the Baal Hatanya to write the Kuntres Talmud Torah in answer to the claims of the Misnagdim that Chassidim don't learn. So, because of the Hisnagdus, the world received a gem like Kuntres Talmud Torah....

3. I showed this point from the Kuntres Talmud Torah of the Ba'al Hatanya.

Entirely possible. But then we would have to deal with the fact that Hisnagdus caused the Kuntres Talmud Torah.

(emphasis in the original)

Dude, "I read somewhere" is about as far removed from proven fact as you can get. Though if you made an account just to get involved in this most random and dirty discussion, maybe I shouldn't expect any level of research.

[Unusual]

is this the line you're having trouble with?
Let me clarify:
The Redifos (ח, מסירה , etc) and their authorization, in my opinion those were caused by being fed lies.
you certainly called that chutzpah, and seem to have called that hateful.

at the same time, you are so confident in the accuracy of those events that you insist that they were justified, yet you are shocked that that would be viewed as anything but curiosity.

which part of the equivalence are you missing?

Show me where I wrote one word about 'the accuracy of those events'. Will you apologize when you can't?

No.
I insist it's a Factual inaccuracy that has at times been perpetuated, at times maliciously.

revisionist history

You are not answering the question. The question wasn't if it's true, but if it's possible.

You keep on misreading my posts and attacking me for your mistakes.

[Unusual]

Wow, I check out for a day and come back to 4 new pages of discussion in one of the weirdest and most painful threads on DDF (that I'm aware of).

I'm not going to get too involved here, especially since many people seem to be lacking in communication skills, which makes it hard to have even the illusion of an honest debate. (If I have no idea what you're saying, how am I supposed to respond?)

But two thoughts:

I don't really get when this discussion became focused on the question of "did chassidus benefit from the hisnagdus at all" (was this part of a different thread which got merged here?), but anyway, I have no problem with saying something like that, just as I have no problem saying how if not for Haman we wouldn't have Purim, and we need to recognize the debt we owe him. (y'all can take that as sarcastic as you wish. or not at all.)

Personally I think a lot of the resistance among chassidim to that idea is that it's easily intended as the conclusion or preface to some random attack or the justification of one.
(emphasis in the original)

Dude, "I read somewhere" is about as far removed from proven fact as you can get. Though if you made an account just to get involved in this most random and dirty discussion, maybe I shouldn't expect any level of research.

Now you are putting intentions in my mouth.
If I have an agenda, it is that which I have been writing again and again. We are one nation, we need each other. Nobody exists alone, and the sooner we recognize it, the better. The idea that Kehillas Belz, Shuvu Banim, Allepo, Lakewood, or Chabad don't need the rest of Klal Yisroel and can exist alone is just a way of separating from Klal Yisroel and causing divisions.