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I’d be wary though, [Kehos has] been accused of tampering with the text of when it doesn’t fit with their narrative, for example when the צמח צדק spoke with “too much” respect about the גר”א.
Yada yada yada

It’s pretty clear that my op was unnecessarily incendiary and provocative, it also did not account for who was קהת in that timeframe (which I had been unaware).
Because I brought it up I should say this: It’s clear that the allegations about the כתבי יד are unsubstantiated, and are thus conspiratorial.

« Last edited by Dan on January 13, 2023, 10:09:03 AM »

Author Topic: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery  (Read 49563 times)

Offline EliJelly

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #960 on: December 20, 2023, 11:02:23 AM »
See יחיד בדורו about the first Belzer Ruv for more info.


I remember there was more to it than that.

Tell him the story with the big Talis koton and the Yeshias Yakov.

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #961 on: December 20, 2023, 01:53:06 PM »
Tell him the story with the big Talis koton and the Yeshias Yakov.
One of the fiercest misnagdim…

Go on

Offline EliJelly

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #962 on: December 20, 2023, 08:00:09 PM »
One of the fiercest misnagdim…

Define fiercest. He was known to say some witty and snarky remarks on the chassidim and their minhagim, but not in the league or remotely close to the earlier Lithuanians who were bitter against chassidim. He never fought the chassidim and was actually close with them, interacted with them a lot and even admired some Rebbes (famously the Ateres Zvi of Ziditchov). He was greatly revered by all chassidim and it was the shtick for chassidisha lomdim in Lemberg to go to him to talk in learning and show him that chassidim do know to learn well. His talmid, nephew and successor - the שאול ומשיב was already extremely close with chassidim, revered their Rebbes and was famously the שר המסכים on many ספרי חסידות.
 
Go on

So that's how the story goes...

 The מהר״ץ חיות became the rov in Zolkova and that position came with being the legal chief rabbi for the entire region, including Belz where the first Belzer rov Reb Shulam was the Rov. The Belzer rov, like all Chassidim in the area, was opposed to him as he was a borderline maskil and was close with maskilim and boycotted his legal cheif rabbi status. The מהר״ץ חיות initially tried to impose his authority on the Belzer rov and forced him to come and be tested by him to validate his rabbonis in Belz. That was the big march to Zolkova in the recent post. He also summonsed the Belzer rov to the gubernator in Lemberg to answer why he disobeys the מהר״ץ חיות legal authority. The Belzer rov came to the hearing in Lemberg and responded that he views the מהר״ץ חיות as one who doesn't follow tradition and Halacha properly and pointed to the טלית קטן of the מהר״ץ חיות saying that it isn't long enough l'halacha. (Belzer Rov was a big machmir..) The מהר״ץ חיות laughed and said that he can assure that the local famed rabbi, the ישועות יעקב, doesn't wear a longer talis than his. So the ישועות יעקב was called to get his talis measured... And, he showed up with an old and yellow looong talis! So the gubernator accepted the Belzer rov's tainos and exempted him from obeying to the מהר״ץ חיות. When they left, the מהר״ץ חיות asked the ישועות יעקב why in the world he's wearing that day such an old long talis so he answered that weirdly that morning he couldn't find his talis he had misplaced so he was forced to take out an old talis he had b'yerusha from his grandfather the Chacham Zvi to wear it... And the ישועות יעקב advised him against having disputes with the Belzer rov..

So that's a nice and famous chassidisha maisa, which you can decide to believe and you're not an apikores if you don't. (could be there are sources)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2023, 08:04:39 PM by EliJelly »

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #963 on: December 20, 2023, 08:10:48 PM »
Interesting story. Don’t know much details of his level of hisnagdus, perhaps it was his son (Rav Mordechai?) who was known to be a strong misnaged? There’s was something between them and the Rizhiner iirc.

The חתם סופר was wary of the מהרי״ץ חיות as well as evident in his teshiva to him.

Offline EliJelly

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #964 on: December 20, 2023, 08:13:06 PM »

The חתם סופר was wary of the מהרי״ץ חיות as well as evident in his teshiva to him.

Yup famously. He actually wrote very nicely to him so not to lose such a gaon to the maskilim, with which he was successful.

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #965 on: December 20, 2023, 08:33:46 PM »
Yup famously. He actually wrote very nicely to him so not to lose such a gaon to the maskilim, with which he was successful.
Similar to his attempts with שי״ר, the ketzos’s SIL

Offline EliJelly

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #966 on: December 20, 2023, 08:40:21 PM »
Similar to his attempts with שי״ר, the ketzos’s SIL

Really? Is there tshuvos from the C"S to שי״ר?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2023, 08:43:37 PM by EliJelly »

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #967 on: December 20, 2023, 08:53:06 PM »
Really? Is there tshuvos from the C"S to שי״ר?
Letters FWIU. I'm not sure where they are printed but see here
https://hakirah.org/Vol%208%20Landerer.pdf
page 113 towards the end

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #968 on: December 20, 2023, 10:55:47 PM »

Offline Unusual

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #969 on: December 20, 2023, 11:05:47 PM »
Yup famously. He actually wrote very nicely to him so not to lose such a gaon to the maskilim, with which he was successful.
I don't trust that story

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #970 on: December 20, 2023, 11:07:22 PM »
I don't trust that story
The part about the חת״ס and the מהרי״ץ חיות?

Offline EliJelly

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #971 on: December 20, 2023, 11:52:13 PM »
I don't trust that story

The לב העברי writes that the C"S himself said that

Offline Chuchum Ainer

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #972 on: December 21, 2023, 01:02:10 AM »
On the topic of Chassidim vs maskilim, someone sent me this letter to translate (heb-english translation is a side hustle). I had to beg off the job as I'm not familiar enough with the style or subject, but it's a fascinating letter from the Rebbe the Rayatz about the holiness of the alef beis, and incidentally an overview of the varying degrees of opposition toward the grammarians of the day, who were associated with the haskala.
Letter starts here,
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=31603&st=&pgnum=175&hilite=
Part I'm specifically referencing is
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=31603&st=&pgnum=177



Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #973 on: December 21, 2023, 01:17:00 AM »
On the topic of Chassidim vs maskilim, someone sent me this letter to translate (heb-english translation is a side hustle). I had to beg off the job as I'm not familiar enough with the style or subject, but it's a fascinating letter from the Rebbe the Rayatz about the holiness of the alef beis, and incidentally an overview of the varying degrees of opposition toward the grammarians of the day, who were associated with the haskala.
Letter starts here,
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=31603&st=&pgnum=175&hilite=
Part I'm specifically referencing is
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=31603&st=&pgnum=177
There was a big machlokes between the talmidei hamagid and רבנים הגאונים about how to study dikduk specifically, in 1773?

I’d like to see the some proof to that.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2023, 01:32:33 AM by imayid2 »

Offline zh cohen

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Offline Unusual

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #975 on: December 21, 2023, 07:55:48 AM »
The לב העברי writes that the C"S himself said that

The לב העברי was a three year old when the CS was niftar, so he wasn't giving witness.

But if we can discount the words of the CS by inventing an agenda for him, what are we left with?

Offline EliJelly

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #976 on: December 21, 2023, 09:29:13 AM »
The לב העברי was a three year old when the CS was niftar, so he wasn't giving witness.

Right, but he may knew it from his father, shver, and all his rebbeim who were Talmidim of the C"S.

But if we can discount the words of the CS by inventing an agenda for him, what are we left with?

That's the question, if it's an invention or an עד מפי עד, I don't know one way or the other.
Given the way he writes about חכמות חיצונית in his seforim, priding with all the professors in Berlin and elsewhere he had correspondence with, it is very sensible the common version of this. The C"S was allergic to any of that. I also remember reading a polemic about the C"S teshuva to him had another piece which he directed not to send, and was printed elsewhere without a name? Some vague memory.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2023, 09:36:28 AM by EliJelly »

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #977 on: December 21, 2023, 10:06:16 AM »
I also remember reading a polemic about the C"S teshuva to him had another piece which he directed not to send, and was printed elsewhere without a name? Some vague memory.
You’re probably referring to the tshuva about הלנת מת which is unnamed in shut Chas’s and says at the end that he doesn’t trust the שואל, that wasn’t in the teshuva he sent him

Offline Unusual

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #978 on: December 21, 2023, 10:39:28 AM »
Right, but he may knew it from his father, shver, and all his rebbeim who were Talmidim of the C"S.

That's the question, if it's an invention or an עד מפי עד, I don't know one way or the other.
Given the way he writes about חכמות חיצונית in his seforim, priding with all the professors in Berlin and elsewhere he had correspondence with, it is very sensible the common version of this. The C"S was allergic to any of that. I also remember reading a polemic about the C"S teshuva to him had another piece which he directed not to send, and was printed elsewhere without a name? Some vague memory.
This allergy of the CS is also an invention of later generations, afaik. His Teshuvos against the Reformers have nothing to do with that.

I am not sure I believe that Haskala was ever the danger it is purported to be. Haskala and leaving Torah came simultaneously, so it is thought to be connected, and some people of the time made that connection. Like Internet and going off the derech nowadays. When a bochur leaves learning and Mitzvos, he gets a smartphone. Doesn't mean the cause is the smart phone, it may just as well be the effect.

Offline Definitions2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #979 on: December 21, 2023, 10:56:37 AM »
I never looked into what haskala was. Until now I just equated haskala with kofrim. Yesterday was the first time that I read the Wikipedia article on it (great source I know). To me it sounds
quite similar to today's modern Orthodoxy with a slight twist of using Hebrew as an everyday language.