(False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery

[imayid2]

I have not (it's extensive, and requires time, which is in short supply nowadays). I did read the introduction (I believe my son read the entire thing). I have a PDF of it on my phone, so I can sometimes read during downtime.

I strongly suggest you refrain from posting about the topic until you've at least read Wilansky's introduction (preferably the entire book).

And regarding "Hasidism A New History" I looked at the TOC here and don't see that this could in any way cover the topic.

I do have access to Wilansky, I’ll take a look at the introduction bl’n.

Just to get clear what I’m looking for, he’s going to clear this up

I'd say this is a perfect demonstration of the dangers that existed, and apparently persist:
Besides, the Alter Rebbe himself battled with Chassidim whom he felt acted improperly, why not attribute the fierce opposition to those types of actions, which the Alter Rebbe decried?

Btw this attitude is perceived as a tremendous disrespect to the many Gedolim who were involved in the original opposition.

?

[imayid2]

And regarding "Hasidism A New History" I looked at the TOC here and don't see that this could in any way cover the topic.

Which specific “topic” are you referring to? The book isn’t specifically about the original fight, but it definitely goes into detail at length in the beginning chapters. Much of it proving that the polemics written about the Chassidim at the time were grossly exaggerated and inaccurate.

[imayid2]

I did read the introduction (I believe my son read the entire thing).

If you don’t mind asking him when you have a chance, I’d be interested to know if someone “on the other side” also found it

very balanced.

[ExGingi]

I do have access to Wilansky, I’ll take a look at the introduction bl’n.

Just to get clear what I’m looking for, he’s going to clear this up?

Seriously?

And I just thought all along that you're looking for the truth. I guess there's a reason for the Rebbe Maharash saying what he said (quoted here).

[aygart]

Seriously?

And I just thought all along that you're looking for the truth. I guess there's a reason for the Rebbe Maharash saying what he said (quoted here).

Which page would I find that on?

[ExGingi]

Which page would I find that on?

As far as I understand Wilansky is the most extensive repository of documents on the topic. I don't think he's biased one way or the other. So if one is seeking the truth, it's best to first get ascertainable facts straight.

I initially considered pointing to some letters of the Alter Rebbe, but chose to refer to Wilansky instead as I assume those would be included there.

[ExGingi]

If you don’t mind asking him when you have a chance, I’d be interested to know if someone “on the other side” also found it

I think you might be misunderstanding. I was referring to Wilansky's book.

[ExGingi]

Just to get clear what I’m looking for, he’s going to clear this up?

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the story about the קשיות that the Maggid had for the בעש"ט.

Whether you are familiar or not, I think you might find Rabbi Paltiel's classes enlightening and enjoyable. (Don't miss the parts about chassidei TOLK).

https://insidechassidus.org/series/the-holy-maggid-of-metzritch/

[imayid2]

And I just thought all along that you're looking for the truth.

You are avoiding my question. It is unfair to respond to targeted questions with a generic “you have to read this book”. Especially when the book I’ve gotten my information from is very much based on the that book.

[imayid2]

@ExGingi do you agree or denounce the antinomianism expressed here? If we’re not on the same page about this we should focus on it first.
 

באים החסידים והופכים את הקערה על פיה: לומדים וטובלים קודם התפלה - אפילו אם יאלצו בשל כך להתפלל אח"כ ביחידות, אוכלים קודם התפלה אפילו אם ה"תענית" הקלה לא תזיק לבריאותם, ולבסוף אפילו מאחרים תפלתם אחר הזמן שנקבע בדברי חז"ל והשו"ע וברצונו וחכמתו של הקב"ה שאינו משתנה!
וכל כך למה? כדי לקיים את רצונו של הקב"ה! אמנם כל צעדיו של המתנגד ספורים ומדודים ומכוונים לדברי הש"ס והפוסקים ולדברי הבורא ית` עצמו, אבל החסידים שואפים לקיים את רצונו של הקב"ה ולא את דבריו. ובלשון משפטית: קיום רוחו של החוק עדיפה על קיום לשונו. החסידים משוכנעים כי רצונו הפנימי של הקב"ה הוא שהתפלה תהי` ע"ד ואשפוך את נפשי וכד`, וכדי להגיע לכך הם מוכנים לעבור אפילו על הלכות מפורשות, ללמוד, להאריך בהכנות, לאכול - והעיקר שתהא זו תפלה אמיתית, גם אם אינה בזמן וגם אם לשון החוק מעדיפה את התפלה המיכנית והמדוקדקת על תפלה שאינה עומדת בקריטריונים הברורים של ההלכה.
זו דוגמה אחת מני רבות שבה החסיד שופט בשכלו כי עליו לנטות מן ההלכה הפסוקה כדי לקיים את רצון בוראו. אותו חסיד גם יתן צדקה יותר מאשר מותר לו ע"פ לשון ההלכה, יהי` מוכן לעבור על שבות דרבנן כדי לזכות במצוה (כידוע מר"ז ווילענקיס - מחסידי אדמוה"ז - שנסע בסוסו ועגלתו אחר התקדש ליל ראש-השנה כדי שיגיע למקום ישוב וישמע קול שופר), ומאידך גיסא יוכל לבטל תלמוד-תורה ומצוה כדי שלא יראוהו עוסק בהן ויכבדוהו (או שרצונו שיזלזלוהו), ויוכל לעבור איסור דאורייתא למען כבוד שמו - ככל הני עבירות לשמן שבדברי חז"ל, וכאותו א` מאנ"ש שהרים מהקרקע בש"ק דף סידור וטלטלו אמות רבות ברשות הרבים דאורייתא, כדי ששמו הק` לא יהא מונח בבזיון

[jye]

I have not.

But I have read Chassidim: A new history published by a team of scholars some who’ve devoted their careers to Chassidim, which quotes from it extensively. I’ve found it very balanced.

Have you read it?

Thanks for the Mareh Makom. It seems the description of the original chassidim standing on their heads to daven is actually quite accurate. Fascinating.

https://rebgershonribner.com/were-some-great-chassidic-leaders-missing-parallel-greatness-in-torah
Rav Gershon Ribner says in the name of Rav Shach that the chassidim saved the litvaks from what what turning into a lifeless kulo torah movement with no hergesh.

I think he once mentioned that by the same token some of the early chassidim were so extreme they would daven standing on their heads. As a father of kids who are direct descendants of both the Baal Shem and the Gra, I’m glad everyone sorted things out

[aygart]

As far as I understand Wilansky is the most extensive repository of documents on the topic. I don't think he's biased one way or the other. So if one is seeking the truth, it's best to first get ascertainable facts straight.

I initially considered pointing to some letters of the Alter Rebbe, but chose to refer to Wilansky instead as I assume those would be included there.

But he is looking to see if a specific topic is discussed. The book can be full of truth but not discuss the topic he is looking for at all. That would render it irrelevant to that discussion without the need for the wanton accusations of sinas chinam over anything anyone says.

[imayid2]

Thanks for the Mareh Makom. It seems the description of the original chassidim standing on their heads to daven is actually quite accurate. Fascinating.

Especially perplexing is the inability to acknowledge this when it’s coming from sources like this:
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=31632&st=&pgnum=143

[jye]

Especially perplexing is the inability to acknowledge this when it’s coming from sources like this:
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=31632&st=&pgnum=143

It doesn’t appear to be referring to doing so while davening.

[aygart]

It doesn’t appear to be referring to doing so while davening.

Is during davening better or worse?

[jye]

Is during davening better or worse?

You don’t see the difference between some Nah Nach guys doing handsprings in the street to the tune of מצוה גדולה להיות בשמחה and a kloiz full of guys standing on their heads for שמונה עשרה?

[imayid2]

You don’t see the difference between some Nah Nach guys doing handsprings in the street to the tune of מצוה גדולה להיות בשמחה

Do you think it’s likely they were doing so during davening as well?

FWIU there is much evidence for this taking place.

[EliJelly]

Do you think it’s likely they were doing so during davening as well?

FWIU there is much evidence for this taking place.

To set the record straight, there was a group of Chassidim called the "Kaliskers" who were doing this. It wasn't the standard practice of the Chassidim and it was likely blown out of proportion by the Misnagdim back then.

[imayid2]

You don’t see the difference between some Nah Nach guys

This is not a proper analogy at all. At that point in history Chassidim were just emerging, and there was a very real concern that this was representative of all Chassidim. Rav Avraham Kalisk was a talmid of the  Maggid.

Of course we now know that isn’t true. But to claim that there was absolutely nothing there, and there was no concern at all of this, along with other funny stuff, becoming more widespread, and it isn’t probable that the fierce opposition played a role in mitigating it, as expressed here

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4NkjcPhAljbm5M4ubcLCxt?si=a1YUor8kSvSp5FAy3vqRWg&t=3621&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A77VchiUJXD8vE5AjakQ1r3

Is revisionist history in a most astonishing fashion.

[ExGingi]

To set the record straight, there was a group of Chassidim called the "Kaliskers" who were doing this. It wasn't the standard practice of the Chassidim and it was likely is blown out of proportion and taken out of context by the Misnagdim back then.

FTFY