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I’d be wary though, [Kehos has] been accused of tampering with the text of when it doesn’t fit with their narrative, for example when the צמח צדק spoke with “too much” respect about the גר”א.
Yada yada yada

It’s pretty clear that my op was unnecessarily incendiary and provocative, it also did not account for who was קהת in that timeframe (which I had been unaware).
Because I brought it up I should say this: It’s clear that the allegations about the כתבי יד are unsubstantiated, and are thus conspiratorial.

« Last edited by Dan on January 13, 2023, 10:09:03 AM »

Author Topic: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery  (Read 66332 times)

Offline jye

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #140 on: December 30, 2022, 03:46:07 AM »
Anything could happen. Question is if the whole source is because it can’t be the צמח צדק referred to the Gaon as holy.
According to מקור ברוך the צמח צדק credited the machlokes of the Gaon and misnagdim on the chassidim with saving the chassidim from going off the rails which they were in danger of doing…..

Offline gozalim

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #141 on: December 30, 2022, 03:53:40 AM »
According to מקור ברוך the צמח צדק credited the machlokes of the Gaon and misnagdim on the chassidim with saving the chassidim from going off the rails which they were in danger of doing…..
you'd love rabbi mondshine's take on that story

Offline AsherO

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #142 on: December 30, 2022, 07:24:19 AM »
According to מקור ברוך the צמח צדק credited the machlokes of the Gaon and misnagdim on the chassidim with saving the chassidim from going off the rails which they were in danger of doing…..

That’s like suggesting @imayid2 is keeping Lubavitchers honest in this thread.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #143 on: December 30, 2022, 07:29:51 AM »
you'd love rabbi mondshine's take on that story
I wonder if it’s לשיטתו that the גר״א didn’t adequately protest the רדיפות of חסידים because he needed money from the ראשי קהל and therefore was scared to protest because he would lose money concluding כי בצל החכמה בצל הכסף
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=23647&st=&pgnum=137&hilite=
He got some flack for this, to put mildly.

Offline jye

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #144 on: December 30, 2022, 08:53:20 AM »
you'd love rabbi mondshine's take on that story
Except that there’s apparently independent coroboration that the meeting and discussion did indeed take place.
 https://seforimblog.com/2008/02/response-to-dr/?

Offline jye

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #145 on: December 30, 2022, 09:08:43 AM »
I wonder if it’s לשיטתו that the גר״א didn’t adequately protest the רדיפות of חסידים because he needed money from the ראשי קהל and therefore was scared to protest because he would lose money concluding כי בצל החכמה בצל הכסף
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=23647&st=&pgnum=137&hilite=
He got some flack for this, to put mildly.
Haven’t gone through much of his writings but to say that on the Gra sounds not too far from those who criticized Moshe Rabbeinu ראו כמה עבים שוקיו כמה צוארו שמן הכל משלנו kind of take on the Gaon, a malach elokim. Does he really think the Goan would encourage and participate in a Cheirem that resulted in one of the biggest schisms in Klal Yisrael since the churban bayis because he needed his free mortgage assistance and the guys in the kloiz neeeded the kollel check. And to compare that to Montefiore not being excoriated for visiting Har Habayis? Seriously?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 09:32:45 AM by jye »

Offline Pony

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Re: Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #146 on: December 30, 2022, 09:36:18 AM »
Ah.. I misread it as a response to my follow up question;

Which now remains unanswered.

It would be foolish and against Torah values for me to attempt to attempt to "rate" the gedoie haposkim. Suffice to say that they are all anoshim gedolim that we can all learn much from. I understand a chasid may have a particuler affinity for the seforim of his rebbe but what good can come out of trying to pinpoint out a "rating" of one great sefer vs another on a public foroum?

For that matter, what good can come out of rehashing a machlokis that enveloped klal yisroel 200 years ago? Suffice to say that there were great people on both sides and it was a machlokis lsheim shomayim. Lets not be like Korach, lets move on from what divides us and focus on so much more of what unites us.

Offline aygart

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #147 on: December 30, 2022, 09:36:57 AM »
So is it a personal concern or does it mean little to you?
::)
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #148 on: December 30, 2022, 09:43:19 AM »
Haven’t gone through much of his writings
It’s indicative of his unabashed feelings of the litvash in general. Here’s another gem, which is theologically absolutely unacceptable.
מדרכי החסידות הוא שלא לנטות מדרך ההלכה ימין ושמאל, להזהר עד קצה האחרון אפילו בדקדוק קל של דברי סופרים, לבטל את השכל אל ההלכה ורצון ה` שאינו משתנה - בקיצור: מ`דארף זיין פרום. מאידך גיסא הכל יודעים כי החסידים לא גרסו את ה"פרומקייט", וה"פרומער מתנגד" הי` לגנאי. מה פשר הדבר?
מובן שהחילוק בין חסידישע פרומקייט ומתנגדישע, מתבטא בגמישותו ופקחותו של החסיד, לעומת המתנגד הנוהג בטמטום מרובע והולך עם הראש בקיר - מתוך הרגשה שהוא עושה בדיוק מה שנצטווה לעשות, ללא התחכמויות חסידיות.
ולכן לא יעלה בדעתו של המתנגד לאחר את זמן התפלה כפי שלא יעלה בדעתו לאכול מצה בסוכות. הוא יקום ויעמוד להתפלל מיד בקומו משנתו, ח"ו לא ילמד קודם התפלה כדי שתהא סמוכה למטתו, ולא יבטל תפלה בציבור אפילו אם לשם כך יצטרך לוותר על טבילת עזרא. ואם מן המהדרין הוא המשכימים ל"ותיקין", הרי שתפלתו תהי` בתכלית השלימות ההלכתית כשיעמוד לשמו"ע ושעון בידו לקבוע מתי בדיוק יתחיל בתפלה.
באים החסידים והופכים את הקערה על פיה: לומדים וטובלים קודם התפלה - אפילו אם יאלצו בשל כך להתפלל אח"כ ביחידות, אוכלים קודם התפלה אפילו אם ה"תענית" הקלה לא תזיק לבריאותם, ולבסוף אפילו מאחרים תפלתם אחר הזמן שנקבע בדברי חז"ל והשו"ע וברצונו וחכמתו של הקב"ה שאינו משתנה!
וכל כך למה? כדי לקיים את רצונו של הקב"ה! אמנם כל צעדיו של המתנגד ספורים ומדודים ומכוונים לדברי הש"ס והפוסקים ולדברי הבורא ית` עצמו, אבל החסידים שואפים לקיים את רצונו של הקב"ה ולא את דבריו. ובלשון משפטית: קיום רוחו של החוק עדיפה על קיום לשונו. החסידים משוכנעים כי רצונו הפנימי של הקב"ה הוא שהתפלה תהי` ע"ד ואשפוך את נפשי וכד`, וכדי להגיע לכך הם מוכנים לעבור אפילו על הלכות מפורשות, ללמוד, להאריך בהכנות, לאכול - והעיקר שתהא זו תפלה אמיתית, גם אם אינה בזמן וגם אם לשון החוק מעדיפה את התפלה המיכנית והמדוקדקת על תפלה שאינה עומדת בקריטריונים הברורים של ההלכה.
זו דוגמה אחת מני רבות שבה החסיד שופט בשכלו כי עליו לנטות מן ההלכה הפסוקה כדי לקיים את רצון בוראו. אותו חסיד גם יתן צדקה יותר מאשר מותר לו ע"פ לשון ההלכה, יהי` מוכן לעבור על שבות דרבנן כדי לזכות במצוה (כידוע מר"ז ווילענקיס - מחסידי אדמוה"ז - שנסע בסוסו ועגלתו אחר התקדש ליל ראש-השנה כדי שיגיע למקום ישוב וישמע קול שופר), ומאידך גיסא יוכל לבטל תלמוד-תורה ומצוה כדי שלא יראוהו עוסק בהן ויכבדוהו (או שרצונו שיזלזלוהו), ויוכל לעבור איסור דאורייתא למען כבוד שמו - ככל הני עבירות לשמן שבדברי חז"ל, וכאותו א` מאנ"ש שהרים מהקרקע בש"ק דף סידור וטלטלו אמות רבות ברשות הרבים דאורייתא, כדי ששמו הק` לא יהא מונח בבזיון

Offline aygart

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #149 on: December 30, 2022, 09:45:35 AM »
According to מקור ברוך the צמח צדק credited the machlokes of the Gaon and misnagdim on the chassidim with saving the chassidim from going off the rails which they were in danger of doing…..

@ExGingi
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline gozalim

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #150 on: December 30, 2022, 09:49:55 AM »
Are you guys enjoying digging up every attack made on the Gra?
Have fun with that, but I don't think here's the place

Offline gozalim

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #151 on: December 30, 2022, 09:55:03 AM »

I didn't bring RYM to this thread.
When it supported the aspersions that chassidim would fabricate the Rebbe's words some people were loving him, even wishing for his analysis of their own favorite libels.
So if you're gonna quote the "big lie" I figured you'd like his well published take on it

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #152 on: December 30, 2022, 10:12:58 AM »
I didn't bring RYM to this thread.
When it supported the aspersions that chassidim would fabricate the Rebbe's words some people were loving him, even wishing for his analysis of their own favorite libels.
So if you're gonna quote the "big lie" I figured you'd like his well published take on it
Rav Mondshine was very much admired by, and worked in harmony with, people who soundly criticized some things he wrote. No one denies his amazing contributions to scholarship in general. The world is not black and white.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #153 on: December 30, 2022, 10:13:28 AM »
@ExGingi

Are you looking for a cheap imitation of @TimT or yourself to dig up the past DDF discussions, or do you want me to start using my slowly deteriorating memory to just bring up the arguments?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Dan

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #154 on: December 30, 2022, 10:14:59 AM »
or do you want me to start using my slowly deteriorating memory
Mental exercise is key.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #155 on: December 30, 2022, 10:15:36 AM »
Are you looking for a cheap imitation of @TimT or yourself to dig up the past DDF discussions, or do you want me to start using my slowly deteriorating memory to just bring up the arguments?
It’s in here somewhere
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=79917.0

Offline imayid2

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #156 on: December 30, 2022, 10:18:13 AM »
Are you guys enjoying digging up every attack made on the Gra?
Have fun with that, but I don't think here's the place
It’s critical to understanding the mindset of the author of that piece
Perhaps he sees it as a great disrespect to the גר״א, a beis medrash he’s devoted his life to, similar to how you are reacting to what you perceive as a great disrespect to the beis medrash you belong to.

Offline aygart

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #157 on: December 30, 2022, 10:20:39 AM »
Are you looking for a cheap imitation of @TimT or yourself to dig up the past DDF discussions, or do you want me to start using my slowly deteriorating memory to just bring up the arguments?
The better parts were the ones in Lakewood and CH
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #158 on: December 30, 2022, 10:28:50 AM »
The better parts were the ones in Lakewood and CH

Need to have another few of those, but preferably upgrade them with some good learning.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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Re: (False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery
« Reply #159 on: December 30, 2022, 10:34:02 AM »
Need to have another few of those, but preferably upgrade them with some good learning.
I am game but would rather be in CH better reasons though
Feelings don't care about your facts