(False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery

[Lurker]

This has got to be in the Top 10 Worst Threads on DDF ever. No one is getting more educated, no one's mind is being changed, nothing but bad history stirring up unnecessary animosity.

[Yehuda57]

This has got to be in the Top 10 Worst Threads on DDF ever. No one is getting more educated, no one's mind is being changed, nothing but bad history stirring up unnecessary animosity.

For me the issue isn't the people involved in the discussion, but the readers who might see comments made under the guise of open minded academic inquiry. But that's not actually the case.

So if you're a reader previously unaware of the original accusation and debate (as I wasn't), just know that not only was the claim refuted beyond all doubt more than a decade ago, the evidence to refute it is easier to find than the evidence the accusation is based on.

[imayid2]

The first question is if there is any basis in reality for this claim. There is not. It is nothing short of hilarious.


OK. Let's analyze this one step at a time.

Have you seen any claim, documentation, or evidence that the GR"A himself actually witnessed anything that was alleged about Chassidim, which served as a basis for him signing on to the Cherem?

[ExGingi]

That doesn't say that the GR"A himself witnessed anything.

Rather than trying to twist various documents to fit a narrative, I suggest you read some authentic descriptions of things that actually took place (including the murder of 4 chassidim in Swenzian) here.

[aygart]

That doesn't say that the GR"A himself witnessed anything.

Rather than trying to twist various documents to fit a narrative, I suggest you read some authentic descriptions of things that actually took place here.

Can you point to some highlights?

[gozalim]

Can you point to some highlights?

I think he's referring to fn ב, on pg 19

[ExGingi]

I think he's referring to fn ב, on pg 19

That is regarding the murders. But there are other facts in the רשימה including some regarding the GR"A himself.

And then there's the letter of the A"R (which IINM might have also been brought by Wilansky) where the A"R raises Halachic challenges to the actions taken against chassidim (and mentions שפיכות דמים תרתי משמע)!

[aygart]

That is regarding the murders. But there are other facts in the רשימה including some regarding the GR"A himself.

And then there's the letter of the A"R (which IINM might have also been brought by Wilansky) where the A"R raises Halachic challenges to the actions taken against chassidim (and mentions שפיכות דמים תרתי משמע)!

Can you point to some highlights?

?

[ExGingi]

?

There's a story that starts on page כד regarding כלל ישראל and what the Misnagdim did to obfuscate the facts that the עסקנות came from Chassidim on page כט (tampering with facts isn't new). With more stories in the following pages.

[aygart]

There's a story that starts on page כד regarding כלל ישראל and what the Misnagdim did to obfuscate the facts that the עסקנות came from Chassidim on page כט (tampering with facts isn't new). With more stories in the following pages.

Do any discuss what was told to the GRA?

[gozalim]

https://www.kramim.info/article/ואינה-תשובה-שאלה-של-יושרה-אקדמית-תגובה/10203685

[ExGingi]

https://www.kramim.info/article/ואינה-תשובה-שאלה-של-יושרה-אקדמית-תגובה/10203685

I think this entire thread (and similar ones) can be summed up with the following short paragraphs:

Human nature is to project one's own set of values, expected actions and reactions, on others.

At hand here are to value systems/cultures.

One that is committed to truth at all costs, even if those costs are uncomfortable or detrimental.

On the other side is one that puts self-aggrandizement above all values, and has very little, if any regard to truth and honesty. They also, for some odd reason, feel threatened and incapable of acknowledging and applauding merits of those that ascribe to a different culture and set of values. And when facts stand in the way of self-aggrandizement, that is dealt with through lies, distortions, or distractions.

So the result is a pointless argument, because one side is accusing and suspecting the other of dishonesty, forgery and embellishment (which would be the accusing side's way of dealing with something uncomfortable), while the accused side is expecting honesty and truth to convince (and would have never even found any discomfort with the fact, let alone seeing a need to distort).

[aygart]

I think this entire thread (and similar ones) can be summed up with the following short paragraphs:

Human nature is to project one's own set of values, expected actions and reactions, on others.

At hand here are to value systems/cultures.

One that is committed to truth at all costs, even if those costs are uncomfortable or detrimental.

On the other side is one that puts self-aggrandizement above all values, and has very little, if any regard to truth and honesty. They also, for some odd reason, feel threatened and incapable of acknowledging and applauding merits of those that ascribe to a different culture and set of values. And when facts stand in the way of self-aggrandizement, that is dealt with through lies, distortions, or distractions.

So the result is a pointless argument, because one side is accusing and suspecting the other of dishonesty, forgery and embellishment (which would be the accusing side's way of dealing with something uncomfortable), while the accused side is expecting honesty and truth to convince (and would have never even found any discomfort with the fact, let alone seeing a need to distort).

I have a question for you. Can you see any potential scenario where you would believe the Rebbe said or wrote something that is incorrect?

[gozalim]

I have a question for you. Can you see any potential scenario where you would believe the Rebbe said or wrote something that is incorrect?

incorrect and false are different

[aygart]

incorrect and false are different

I am aware. I guess both deserve an answer. You can answer too. The question is really directed at anyone who considers themselves a lubavitcher.

[Pony]

Here's another question. Can you see any potential scenario where you would believe the Rebbe made a mistake?

[aygart]

Here's another question. Can you see any potential scenario where you would believe the Rebbe made a mistake?

That is a potential case of him having said something incorrect.

[ExGingi]

Here's another question. Can you see any potential scenario where you would believe fail to understand the Rebbe made a mistake?

FTFY.

[Pony]

FTFY.

Sure. Great people can defiantly do and say things that are way above my simple level of comprehension.

 

[aygart]

FTFY.

This is why I worded it the way I did