Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread

[imayid2]

Yes, but his reasoning in אות ב׳ is very much the same. He just picks an extreme case to illustrate the problem.

He concocted that sevara and it was rejected by Rav Chaim who sent it back to אות א which wouldn’t apply in our case at all.

[jye]

He concocted that sevara and it was rejected by Rav Chaim who sent it back to אות א which wouldn’t apply in our case at all.

What would you say in a hypothetical case where ch”v a gunman was holding a Jewish child whom he was believably guaranteeing to keep alive as a human shield and eventually release, while he was systematically picking off Jews by the thousands? Would מאי חזית require that the whole nation be slaughtered one by one rather than taking him and his human shield out if that were the alternative? Is that really analogous to שבע בן בכרי or תנו אחת where the attackers specifically seek to kill that Jew and the הצלה is to specifically hand the Jew of to death as a stand alone מעשה?

Even more so would the hostages in our case be considered a רודף since they provide cover for the terrorist to kill? We know רודף is even passive or involuntary like עובר or חמרא. I never heard anyone question the idea of bombing the concentration camps to save millions of Jews despite the inevitable killing of a few Jews who might have survived.

Edit: could be the above Sefer goes into this. Didn’t have time to read further.

[ExGingi]

Israeli minister swiftly punished after suggesting dropping a nuke on Gaza
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israeli-minister-swiftly-punished-after-suggesting-dropping-a-nuke-on-gaza/ar-AA1jpBys?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=LCTS&cvid=976faa9b1fb64e26bc8399551de571cd&ei=9

Give Bibi credit for taking swift action.

EXCEPT....

Have you ever heard the expression "nuclear option" used in the US (politics, or even business)?

I won't wait for your answer, as I am sure you have.

I just listened to the clip. The interviewer asks whether, following the minister's line of thought that there are no innocent people in Gaza, he believes the right approach is to use "a so-called nuclear option" to level Gaza?

To which the minister replies: That might be one approach. Another approach is to find out what is important to them, what scares them, what will create the next deterrence. Killing them isn't a deterrent. We must bare in mind that they aren't scared of death. They send their children to die. Death isn't a deterrent.

Interviewer: you mentioned the nuclear option as a possibility. Shouldn't we be concerned about the 240 hostages?

Minister: we must reach a point where they BEG to return the hostages. That is what is required.  It is impossible to free them [using a special operation, such as Entebbe].

(I omitted parts which are irrelevant to this discussion).

@CountValentine, if this was a situation where ISIS or the Taliban were holding US hostages, after a similar type of murderous raid, would you rebuke a member of the US administration for responding similarly in an interview?

Did the minister suggest dropping a nuke on Gaza?

[mevinyavin]

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/379756

WSJ against Hamas: 'In English they beg for aid, in Arabic they pledge a massacre'
Editorial column in the Wall Street Journal underscored Hamas hypocrisy. 'Hamas has two different messages for two different audiences.'

[mevinyavin]

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-771808

Sirens sound in Israel's South amid heavy barrage from Gaza
By JERUSALEM POST STAFF
NOVEMBER 5, 2023 17:05
Updated: NOVEMBER 5, 2023 17:39

Sirens sounded across southern Israel and the Gaza border communities amid a heavy rocket barrage from the Gaza Strip on Sunday afternoon.

A fire broke out in a southern Israel town in the Eshkol Regional Council after a rocket landed on a vehicle in the border town.

Israeli security forces along with the emergency standby squad were working to gain control of the fire.

Still hasn't stopped. Amazing, in a horrifying way, that they are still at it and still viewed in favor by many out there.

[AYHG]

You also seem to have the opinion that all children are considered innocent. I politely disagree on that last point. Have a nice night.

I strongly disagree with this statement. Of course children are innocent. They do not have the intelligence required for responsibility. We can debate up until what age this holds true today (though I don't purport to know the answer). We just read on shabbos that Yishmael was judged "באשר הוא שם". Any exception you may cite from tanach was an exceptional instruction under that circumstance for a reason. There would presumably be no justification in applying that to Yishmael.

What I am saying is that there are cases where even you would agree that they aren’t. For example if an 8 year old kid goes on a killing spree with a gun. There are many scenarios that are between a plain innocent child and that case. We may disagree on some of those cases.

Even in this case the child is presumably innocent! Although we'd certainly be required to put an end to his rampage in whichever way necessary, this would be because he's a רודף, not because he's liable for his actions.

[yfr bachur]

Still hasn't stopped. Amazing, in a horrifying way, that they are still at it and still viewed in favor by many out there.

I was wondering why you thought this was news...
then i came to the comment thread and saw why...

I'll post just the azaka log from the last two three days: (available at https://www.oref.org.il/12481-en/Pakar.aspx)

Today 05.11.2023
Missiles
17:20
Nirim
17:03
Pri Gan
17:02
Sufa, Nir Itzhak
17:00
Reim
16:59
Yevul, Avshalom
16:59
Sufa
16:59
Sdeh Avraham, Yated
16:58
Holit
16:51
Hatzerim
16:51
Beer Sheva - South
16:51
Beer Sheva - West
16:01
Sderot, Ivim, Nir Am
15:18
Kissufim
15:07
Kerem Shalom
15:00
Mivtachim Amioz Yesha
13:57
Arab al-Aramshe
12:56
Netivot
11:48
Yir'on, Avivim
10:40
Reim
09:32
Matat
08:03
Mivtachim Amioz Yesha
07:13
Mivtachim Amioz Yesha
05:34
Misgav Am
Yesterday 04.11.2023
Missiles
22:02
Ayanot
22:02
Gan Sorek, Palmachin Industrial Park
22:01
Ramot Meir, Sitria, Na'an, Yatzitz, Ganei Hadar
22:01
Beit Oved
22:01
Mishmar HaShiva, Beit Dagan
22:00
Netzer Sireni
22:00
Yashresh, Rehovot
22:00
Yad Rambam, Matzliach, Nesher Industrial Zone (Ramla)
22:00
Zeitan, Achiezer, Zrifin Industrial Zone, Ramla, Nir Zvi, Lod, Be'er Yacov
22:00
Rishon LeZion - West, Holon, Bat Yam
22:00
Ness Ziona, Neta'im, Beit Hanan, Irus, Rishon LeZion - East
21:11
Bat Hadar, Beit Shikma
21:02
Nir- Um shooting range, Mefalsim
21:02
Gavim, Sapir College
21:02
Sderot, Ivim, Nir Am
20:53
Havat Shikmim, Dorot, Ashkelon Southern Industrial Zone
20:52
Sa'ad, Kfar Azza
18:01
Sderot, Ivim, Nir Am
17:05
Yotvata Hai Bar Nature Reserve, Shitim, Shachrut, Ktura, Neveh Harif, Neot Smadar, Lotan, Yotvata, Yahel, Grofit
16:01
Beit Ezra
16:00
Ad Halom Industrial Zone
16:00
Nitzan
16:00
Nir Israel, Nitzanim, Kfar Silver, Hodaya, Berekhya, Be'er Ganim, Ashkelon - North, Ashkelon Northern Industrial Zone
16:00
Shtulim
16:00
Ashdod - Yod Alef, Yod Bet, Tet Vav, Yod Zain, Marina, City, Ashdod - Alef, Bet, Dalet, Heh
16:00
Sdeh Uziahu, Azrikam, Emunim, Ashdod - Het, Tet, Yod, Yod Gimmel, Yod Dalet, Te*, Ashdod - Gimmel, Vav, Zain
16:00
Gan Yavne
15:59
Ashkelon Southern Industrial Zone
15:20
Sa'ad, Kfar Azza
15:10
Kerem Shalom
14:08
Ein HaShlosha, Nirim
13:53
Nirim
11:38
Kissufim
11:00
Malkia, Dishon
10:49
Kissufim
09:21
Eilat
Friday 03.11.2023
Missiles
21:29
Azaria, Na'an, Yad Rambam, Ramla, Matzliach, Yashresh
21:28
Lod, Ben Shemen, Ahisemech, Nesher Industrial Zone (Ramla), Kfar Daniel, Gimzo
21:28
Tel Aviv - South and Jaffa
21:28
Holon
21:27
Rishon LeZion - West, Bat Yam
19:52
Netiv HaAssara
19:49
Zikim
19:48
Netiv HaAssara
18:00
Sderot, Ivim, Nir Am
17:02
Sharsheret
17:01
Shokeda
17:01
Tkuma
17:01
Sa'ad
17:01
Yoshivia
17:00
Tkuma and Havat Izra'am, Kfar Maimon and Tushia, Zimrat and Shuva
17:00
Netivot, Beit HaGdi
15:32
Zikim
15:32
Ashkelon Southern Industrial Zone
15:31
Mishmar Ayalon, Karmei Yossef, Kfar Bin Nun, Beko'a
15:23
Netivot, Tkuma, Tkuma and Havat Izra'am, Sa'ad, Kfar Maimon and Tushia, Zimrat and Shuva
14:59
Ein HaShlosha, Nirim
13:01
Nir Itzhak
13:01
Holit
13:01
Sufa
12:09
Kerem Shalom
09:29
Kissufim

[Dan]

We just read on shabbos that Yishmael was judged "באשר הוא שם". Any exception you may cite from tanach was an exceptional instruction under that circumstance for a reason. There would presumably be no justification in applying that to Yishmael.

Is there a good explanation for that, given that Sarah sent him away for idolatry, adultery, and/or attempted murder?

[yelped]

Is there a good explanation for that, given that Sarah sent him away for idolatry, adultery, and/or attempted murder?

Great question! Was wondering the same this week, but didn't look it up in the basic meforshim and Medrashim yet.

[CountValentine]

@CountValentine, if this was a situation where ISIS or the Taliban were holding US hostages, after a similar type of murderous raid, would you rebuke a member of the US administration for responding similarly in an interview?

I would direct the question to Bibi. 

[sam2015]

I strongly disagree with this statement. Of course children are innocent. They do not have the intelligence required for responsibility. We can debate up until what age this holds true today (though I don't purport to know the answer). We just read on shabbos that Yishmael was judged "באשר הוא שם". Any exception you may cite from tanach was an exceptional instruction under that circumstance for a reason. There would presumably be no justification in applying that to Yishmael.

Even in this case the child is presumably innocent! Although we'd certainly be required to put an end to his rampage in whichever way necessary, this would be because he's a רודף, not because he's liable for his actions.

Incorrect. I heard from R’ Avigdor Miller Zt”l that “don’t think children are like animals, they possess a lot of intelligence and are judged in the heavenly scales accordingly. The reason they are patur בדיני אדם is unrelated”.

[sam2015]

Is there a good explanation for that, given that Sarah sent him away for idolatry, adultery, and/or attempted murder?

See שפתי חכמים.

[sam2015]

Incorrect. I heard from R’ Avigdor Miller Zt”l that “don’t think children are like animals, they possess a lot of intelligence and are judged in the heavenly scales accordingly. The reason they are patur בדיני אדם is unrelated”.

That 8 year old child is not exactly sitting in Gan Eden.. According to you he is?!

[DaasTora]

Is there a good explanation for that, given that Sarah sent him away for idolatry, adultery, and/or attempted murder?

I asked my father the same question last night and he responded that it’s been bothering him too.
But regardless we have the בן סורר ומורר precedent that I would assume applies to children in Gaza.

[DaasTora]

Why are there a disproportionate amount of frum soldiers being killed in the current war?
Am I being a conspiracy theorist?

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=134532.msg2762540#msg2762540

[sam2015]

I asked my father the same question last night and he responded that it’s been bothering him too.
But regardless we have the בן סורר ומורר precedent that I would assume applies to children in Gaza.

The חזקוני and שפתי חכמים deal with the בן סורר ומורה question. Yes, we do have a precedent for Gaza, it’s called עמלק. (Now I’ll wait for all the posts blasting me..)

[CountValentine]

Am I being a conspiracy theorist?

Would love to hear what that theory is.

[DaasTora]

The חזקוני and שפתי חכמים deal with the בן סורר ומורה question. Yes, we do have a precedent for Gaza, it’s called עמלק.

What connection does Gaza have with Amalek other than being related?

[DaasTora]

Would love to hear what that theory is.

There have been many complaints in Israel that the IAF is constituted primarily of left wing secular soldiers and so is the Army Intelligence while the religious ones are sent to the front.

[AsherO]

Why are there a disproportionate amount of frum soldiers being killed in the current war?
Am I being a conspiracy theorist?

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=134532.msg2762540#msg2762540

Perhaps there are more religious Zionist IDF soldiers than you assumed. When they called up reserves a lot volunteered, it’s possible the volunteers are also disproportionately religious.