Radical "Terrorist" Gang Digs Tunnels And Breaks 770 Wall

[EliJelly]

This is what TRUE EXPANSION is all about.

Expanding the reach. I don't think ever before did news of 770 reach such a wide global audience. Al-Jazeera, NY Times, NY Post, CNN, The Guardian, just to name a few. Millions (if not billions) of views of various videos and posts from friends and foes!

 ממש ימות המשיח!

יכירו וידעו כל יושבי תבל (כפשוטו)

Good press or bad press, but make sure to have my name (address?) spelled correctly

[ExGingi]

@eitan770 I am sure you mean well, you might just be a little misguided. May I suggest you pay attention to today's היום יום

[Galitzyaner]

This is what TRUE EXPANSION is all about.

Expanding the reach. I don't think ever before did news of 770 reach such a wide global audience. Al-Jazeera, NY Times, NY Post, CNN, The Guardian, just to name a few. Millions (if not billions) of views of various videos and posts from friends and foes!

 ממש ימות המשיח!

יכירו וידעו כל יושבי תבל (כפשוטו)

A Chillul Hashem of epic proportion; surely a manifestation of יכירו וידעו כל יושבי תבל... 
You don't have to repeat GA's idiotic talking points, just because he announces them in public.

[eitan770]

You're entitled to your opinions, but you don't get to dismiss basic definitions or rewrite history. There is most definitely anarchy in 770, especially amongst bochurim who may or may not be a part of any organized kvutza. And the history of the Rebbeim's rules and directives regarding bochurim taking their own initiative is very well documented and in no way ambiguous, even when the bochurim were right and the hanhalah was wrong.

I'm not sure why you're analyzing this story from a bochurim/hanholah lens, as Hanholas Hayeshiva was not involved at all. Now, once we've put that to the side, as I've said previously, it has always been the case in Lubavitch that just about everything that got done was done by the bochurim, and usually "on their own initiative." That need not and should not lead to any major conflict with Hanhola or with Seder HaYeshiva.

770 is certainly an "anarchic" place (and always had been, really) - not very clean, Seforim lying around everywhere with no place to put them, hands-off Gabboim and actual administration being done by others with dubious authority, etc., but there are many contributing factors to that, only some of which are potentially rectifiable, and very few of which have anything to do with the bochurim one way or another.

[eitan770]

This is what TRUE EXPANSION is all about.

Expanding the reach. I don't think ever before did news of 770 reach such a wide global audience. Al-Jazeera, NY Times, NY Post, CNN, The Guardian, just to name a few. Millions (if not billions) of views of various videos and posts from friends and foes!

 ממש ימות המשיח!

יכירו וידעו כל יושבי תבל (כפשוטו)

You're being facetious, but I actually agree. The fact is that (especially after the first few hours, when at least some of the real story began to come up) the entire world spend a good amount of time talking about Chabad, 770, and expanding it. Even some very involved people I know who were vehemently against the bochurim's project concede that this is going to lead to a real, permanent expansion.

[imayid2]

I'm sure

*not sure

[eitan770]

How about answer the question(s)!

Your whole attitude is painfully (though not surprisingly) disturbing. The way you treat this topic in general and this incident in particular, so lightly, so nonchalantly. "Nunu, nunu.."
You (collective you) just made the most massive Chillul Hashem (at minimum vis-a-vis Lubavitch) in the past decade at least (to put it mildly), but eh, "nunu" "nunu"!
NUNU??!! You for real?!
How big of an embarrassment do you need bring on to your surrounding community, on to Yidden in general,  and [even] on to yourselves, in order to reconsider your horrible behavior/lifestyle?

You didn't ask a question, you begged the question. Your assertion that there has been "constant and commonplace anarchy, bullying, violence, terrorism, and militancy" in 770 is simply not true by any metric, as you would know if you'd spent any time here in the past 15 years (at least).

[eitan770]

@eitan770 I am sure you mean well, you might just be a little misguided. May I suggest you pay attention to today's היום יום

I was actually just thinking about this. As I believe I mentioned on Zev Brenner (and if not certainly in one of my VNs that went around), one sees that just about all the vehement condemnation and criticism of that bochurim that's come out in the past two weeks (including from some otherwise serious people, and including from some in this thread) has been all התפעלות, all Middos and no Sechel. It's difficult to have a dialogue with someone when you give him a reasoned argument, and in response he just calls you an evil terrorist.

[Dan]

I was actually just thinking about this. As I believe I mentioned on Zev Brenner

Can you type up what you intended to say on Zev Brenner and to the NYP? The ZB interview is unwatchable, as you noted.

[Just A Jew]

I'm not sure why you're analyzing this story from a bochurim/hanholah lens, as Hanholas Hayeshiva was not involved at all.

They haven't been involved for 20 years, which is exactly the problem. And it's not because they don't care. There's only so much they can be bullied and ignored by people with no respect, who answer to no one. This is the only anarchy in 770, and this is a relatively new development (post gimmul Tammuz).

Now, once we've put that to the side, as I've said previously, it has always been the case in Lubavitch that just about everything that got done was done by the bochurim, and usually "on their own initiative." That need not and should not lead to any major conflict with Hanhola or with Seder HaYeshiva.

770 is certainly an "anarchic" place (and always had been, really) - not very clean, Seforim lying around everywhere with no place to put them, hands-off Gabboim and actual administration being done by others with dubious authority, etc., but there are many contributing factors to that, only some of which are potentially rectifiable, and very few of which have anything to do with the bochurim one way or another.

You really need to get out of your bubble. Farbreng with people who lived 770 and Rebbe in the chofs, lameds, and mems. This is complete revisionist history. There was zero anarchy. No one dared do anything without the Rebbe's knowledge and permission. Bochurim took initiative on certain peulos, but not with the hefkeirus of today's riff raff.

You're being facetious, but I actually agree. The fact is that (especially after the first few hours, when at least some of the real story began to come up) the entire world spend a good amount of time talking about Chabad, 770, and expanding it. Even some very involved people I know who were vehemently against the bochurim's project concede that this is going to lead to a real, permanent expansion.

Excuse the pun, but your tunnel vision is impairing your ability to see the bigger picture. The chillul Hashem and chillul Lubavitch this story has made is huge. That none of those involved thought for even a second to ask the Rebbe mechila for dragging his name through the mud speaks volumes. Who cares if there's a toeles? At what cost? Who gave you the right?

[Galitzyaner]

You didn't ask a question, you begged the question. Your assertion that there has been "constant and commonplace anarchy, bullying, violence, terrorism, and militancy" in 770 is simply not true by any metric, as you would know if you'd spent any time here in the past 15 years (at least).

That's bogus. CH.info has documented only a fraction of the violent incidents that occur. To be clear, by "constant", I don't mean every minute of the day, or even every day. But it's common enough.

Again, back to your general perspective. Like "we're not so bad, we're only violent sometimes, just here and there, only when somebody provokes me".

Alternatively, you've become so accustomed to the militancy of your associates, that perhaps you've developed a very high bar of what you categorize as violence.

one sees that just about all the vehement condemnation and criticism of that bochurim that's come out in the past two weeks (including from some otherwise serious people, and including from some in this thread) has been all התפעלות, all Middos and no Sechel. It's difficult to have a dialogue with someone when you give him a reasoned argument, and in response he just calls you an evil terrorist.

This is so ridiculously ironic that the perpetrators of violence claim they are representing "sechel", and the rest of society "has been all התפעלות".
Quite funny if it wouldn't be so sad.

[eitan770]

They haven't been involved for 20 years, which is exactly the problem. And it's not because they don't care. There's only so much they can be bullied and ignored by people with no respect, who answer to no one. This is the only anarchy in 770, and this is a relatively new development (post gimmul Tammuz).

You really need to get out of your bubble. Farbreng with people who lived 770 and Rebbe in the chofs, lameds, and mems. This is complete revisionist history. There was zero anarchy. No one dared do anything without the Rebbe's knowledge and permission. Bochurim took initiative on certain peulos, but not with the hefkeirus of today's riff raff.

Excuse the pun, but your tunnel vision is impairing your ability to see the bigger picture. The chillul Hashem and chillul Lubavitch this story has made is huge. That none of those involved thought for even a second to ask the Rebbe mechila for dragging his name through the mud speaks volumes. Who cares if there's a toeles? At what cost? Who gave you the right?

No one said anything about doing anything without the Rebbe's permission, but 770 was certainly just as much on wheels in the decades you mentioned as now, if not more. Also notice the language you're using: bochurim doing things I like="initiative," bochurim doing things I don't like="hefkeirus."

And you're simply living in a different reality re Chillul Hashem/Chillul Lubavitch. I had tons of people from all walks of life reach out to me - most people found the story to be a curiosity or even kind of cool. The only negativity was coming from the Frum world (and in the frum world גופא mainly from Chabad). And even that negativity was largely the fault of (1 the initial CH.info article which intentionally used the term "tunnel" and explicitly evoke Hamas' tunnels in Gaza, without which this is never a story to begin with and 2) the corporate Chabad types rushing to issue condemnations instead of actually explaining the story, as Frieda Vizel very rightly noted in her video about the incident. https://www.youtube.com/live/QHJHtlTZ5SU?si=m9tCCwucv2oZVLsG&t=1334

[aygart]

it has always been the case in Lubavitch that just about everything that got done was done by the bochurim, and usually "on their own initiative."

wow

[Yehuda57]

You didn't ask a question, you begged the question. Your assertion that there has been "constant and commonplace anarchy, bullying, violence, terrorism, and militancy" in 770 is simply not true by any metric, as you would know if you'd spent any time here in the past 15 years (at least).

I more "on your side" than you might believe when it comes to 770, but this is disingenuous at best. There has been plenty of violence and large scale fighting, there is the constant threat of violence if someone so much as walks or stands ("where they don't belong", not to mentions the dozens of individuals who can't step foot in 770 for fear of being physically attacked. To deny this is just foolish.

And this is just violence against people and doesn't get into the vandalism, screaming and shouting etc. Entire events with thousands of people have been ruined by the same anarchists.

[aygart]

Chillul Lubavitch

What is this?

[Yehuda57]

What is this?

Lol, we have a Doodle thread on this already

[ExGingi]

What is this?

Mentioned multiple times by R' Shlomo Zarchi in the video of Hanholo meeting for which I posted a link (not tagging it to view inline in the forums) above.

[aygart]

Lol, we have a Doodle thread on this already

I wanted to take advantage while people are speaking their minds.

[ExGingi]

I'm not sure why you're analyzing this story from a bochurim/hanholah lens, as Hanholas Hayeshiva was not involved at all. Now, once we've put that to the side, as I've said previously, it has always been the case in Lubavitch that just about everything that got done was done by the bochurim, and usually "on their own initiative." That need not and should not lead to any major conflict with Hanhola or with Seder HaYeshiva.

Again you pick and choose what you will respond to. For better or for worse, like them or not (I think my position is quite obvious) there are Gabboim who are in charge. Were they asked for permission? Did they authorize anything? Or are you expecting them to put their seal of approval on anything that anyone does thinking it's the right thing to do?

I am still waiting for any letters approving the "project" or any actions in connection to it, especially when done without the approval of the Gabboim (who ostensibly run the place) or Aguch/Merkos (who own the place).

770 is certainly an "anarchic" place (and always had been, really) - not very clean, Seforim lying around everywhere with no place to put them, hands-off Gabboim and actual administration being done by others with dubious authority, etc., but there are many contributing factors to that, only some of which are potentially rectifiable, and very few of which have anything to do with the bochurim one way or another.

And there are plenty of anecdotes (quite a few on video) where the Rebbe expressed his displeasure about it. Where are the bochurim caring about this and taking initiative (rather than making the place a bigger mess)?

[ExGingi]

What is this?

It is part and parcel of ונפלינו.