Messianism among Lubavitch

[Lamdan]

Miracles, as in supernatural, or as in tefilla which was followed by a refuah?

Not walking on water, but Docs giving op on a life, and a gadol guaranteeing a good outcome - a havtacha, things like that.

[churnbabychurn]

virtualy all chabad schools tell the kids "Daven nicely, make the rebbeh proud" of do mitzvos make the rebbeh proud etc. The rest of klal yisroel say "Daven nicely make Hashem proud etc".     So issue number three is real, widespread and serious. Thats all i wanted to point out on this topic.

[springles]

virtualy all chabad schools tell the kids "Daven nicely, make the rebbeh proud" of do mitzvos make the rebbeh proud etc. The rest of klal yisroel say "Daven nicely make Hashem proud etc".     So issue number three is real, widespread and serious. Thats all i wanted to point out on this topic.

All schools will also tell children to daven well and make their parents proud.

[henche]

All schools will also tell children to daven well and make their parents proud.

I tell my kids to daven as nice as they want to, and make me proud.

[Dan]

What's interesting is that that's how Chabad Chassidim were through all the generations up until this past one. Also interesting is that it seems that slowly the Litvishe world is moving towards Mofsim stories too (judging by the Litvishe magazines)

+100
Would be interesting to have a separate thread to discuss why you think it's happening.

Same reason when Chabad introduced the "Kiruv" concept it was derided as bittul torah or worse but years later it caught on like wildfire (of course sweeping under the table who originated the concept, but no matter).

When something is reich and helps in our emunas hashem it will catch on.

[Achas Veachas]

All schools will also tell children to daven well and make their parents proud.

+1
Was going to say that. Saying Daven and make the Rebbe proud is not ascribing G-dliness to the Rebbe Ch"V rather to make someone dear to you proud (aside for the fact that you hear plenty of "make Hashem proud" too).

[Drago]

Not walking on water, but Docs giving op on a life, and a gadol guaranteeing a good outcome - a havtacha, things like that.

But I've always wondered about the times they say that, and it doesn't occur.
Not to be cynical, but if that happened, but the other 49 times they give chizuk it doesn't happen... which one will be publicized?

[Drago]

+1
Was going to say that. Saying Daven and make the Rebbe proud is not ascribing G-dliness to the Rebbe Ch"V rather to make someone dear to you proud (aside for the fact that you hear plenty of "make Hashem proud" too).

Except parents and God are 'living', and the Rebbe is deceased.
So once you're going to make s/o proud, either have it be s/o present in this world (the parents), or s/o not physically present in this world (God). [Plz don't start yelling about the terms I'm using. They're not meant to convey theological meaning.)

[Drago]

Same reason when Chabad introduced the "Kiruv" concept it was derided as bittul torah or worse but years later it caught on like wildfire (of course sweeping under the table who originated the concept, but no matter).

When something is reich and helps in our emunas hashem it will catch on.

Listen, serious props go out to Chabad for the kiruv movement. (As a complete side note. Did R. Carlebach have any connection w/ Chabad?)

But do stories of gedolim doing miracles help with our emunas hashem? I can see both sides of the coin.

[Achas Veachas]

Except parents and God are 'living', and the Rebbe is deceased.
So once you're going to make s/o proud, either have it be s/o present in this world (the parents), or s/o not physically present in this world (God). [Plz don't start yelling about the terms I'm using. They're not meant to convey theological meaning.)

I don't understand, if someones parents pass away he can't do anything to give them Nachas anymore?

[Drago]

I don't understand, if someones parents pass away he can't do anything to give them Nachas anymore?

touche

[Cbs]

Except parents and God are 'living', and the Rebbe is deceased.
So once you're going to make s/o proud, either have it be s/o present in this world (the parents), or s/o not physically present in this world (God). [Plz don't start yelling about the terms I'm using. They're not meant to convey theological meaning.)

I see now what your main issue is with all this. It seems to me that you have a problem with the fact the chabad people talk about the rebbe in a present tense. For example "the rebbe wants us to go put teffilin on others" etc.. Now not always do people talk that way and when they do it doesn't mean that they are meshichist or think the rebbe is physically alive.
So if my assumption is correct, why does that bother you?

[Lamdan]

But I've always wondered about the times they say that, and it doesn't occur.
Not to be cynical, but if that happened, but the other 49 times they give chizuk it doesn't happen... which one will be publicized?

They don't make a havtacha to everybody, it's a rare occasion when they give a havtacha, at least with the gadol in the story in my family which I'm familliar with.

[Drago]

I see now what your main issue is with all this. It seems to me that you have a problem with the fact the chabad people talk about the rebbe in a present tense. For example "the rebbe wants us to go put teffilin on others" etc.. Now not always do people talk that way and when they do it doesn't mean that they are meshichist or think the rebbe is physically alive.
So if my assumption is correct, why does that bother you?

It's not my primary issue. I was simply responding to the previous posting.
It bothers me, but not too much.
Especially when I put it into context of how s/o may say that they're donating tzedaka in memory/honor of their parents. While this is different that the 'nachas' bit, it's at least on the same page.

[Drago]

They don't make a havtacha to everybody, it's a rare occasion when they give a havtacha, at least with the gadol in the story in my family which I'm familliar with.

If it's true, then fair enough.

[Achas Veachas]

It's not my primary issue. I was simply responding to the previous posting.
It bothers me, but not too much.
Especially when I put it into context of how s/o may say that they're donating tzedaka in memory/honor of their parents. While this is different that the 'nachas' bit, it's at least on the same page.

I've heard plenty of times people speaking about giving 'Nachas' to deceased parents/relatives.

[churnbabychurn]

+1
Was going to say that. Saying Daven and make the Rebbe proud is not ascribing G-dliness to the Rebbe Ch"V rather to make someone dear to you proud (aside for the fact that you hear plenty of "make Hashem proud" too).

While there may be a concept of giving nachas to a deceased parent or rebbeh (its a complex sugia in berochos, whether the dead know at all whats happening in this world...) Never in mainstream judaism has any sect taught the children from a young age, constantly to make some human being proud. This is clearly strange, they basically act like they are serving two gods, if you think about it. ..

[Dan]

While there may be a concept of giving nachas to a deceased parent or rebbeh (its a complex sugia in berochos, whether the dead know at all whats happening in this world...) Never in mainstream judaism has any sect taught the children from a young age, constantly to make some human being proud. This is clearly strange, they basically act like they are serving two gods, if you think about it.

Typical brainwashed misnagdishe BS repeating party lines.  A Rebbe-Chosid relationship is what misnagdim fought centuries ago thinking it wasn't mainstream judaism.  This is nothing new.
400 years later, are chasidim really the biggest threat to mainstream judaism?

[Achas Veachas]

Never in mainstream judaism...

True only if you don't consider Chassidism in general to be mainstream Judaism...

[Lamdan]

Typical brainwashed misnagdishe BS repeating party lines.  A Rebbe-Chosid relationship is what misnagdim fought centuries ago thinking it wasn't mainstream judaism.  This is nothing new.
400 years later, are chasidim really the biggest threat to mainstream judaism?

Enough bickering.  Next flaming post earns a free suspension.

Practice what you preach.