Vaccine Discussion Master Thread

[Achas Veachas]

To those arguing that we should simply trust the scientists, consider this argument: Perhaps vaccines are good for society as a whole, but bad for the individuals.

That is, isn't it possible that on the whole, it is beneficial if lots of people get the vaccine, but, the people who are getting it would actually be personally better off if they were in the minority who did not get it and simply "free-ride" on the fact that most people are getting it. It could make sense mathematically. If so, the benefit of getting vaccines is not only the personal benefit, but also the societal benefit which take the form of a positive externality.

Now, we know there are risks, and there are benefits. The scientists tell us that the benefits outweigh the risks. But, perhaps they mean the societal benefits outweigh the societal risks; do we know that the personal benefits outweigh the personal risks?

Now note that of course the scientists would not want us to know if the personal risks outweigh the personal benefits. Their agenda is the good of society, and would want to maximize the social welfare. So, the fact that the CDC recommends it does not really prove the point.

I personally get vaccines, and will vaccinate my kids. But I'm always open to discussing things.

That line of reasoning does make sense, and for that you have to see what the scientists/doctors THEMSELVES do. Something tells me they all vaccinate (CMIIW).

Another important safeguard you can get for yourself is to have a רופא ידיד who is friends with you PERSONALLY whom you can consult with.

[YankyDoodle]

To those arguing that we should simply trust the scientists, consider this argument: Perhaps vaccines are good for society as a whole, but bad for the individuals.

That is, isn't it possible that on the whole, it is beneficial if lots of people get the vaccine, but, the people who are getting it would actually be personally better off if they were in the minority who did not get it and simply "free-ride" on the fact that most people are getting it. It could make sense mathematically. If so, the benefit of getting vaccines is not only the personal benefit, but also the societal benefit which take the form of a positive externality.

Now, we know there are risks, and there are benefits. The scientists tell us that the benefits outweigh the risks. But, perhaps they mean the societal benefits outweigh the societal risks; do we know that the personal benefits outweigh the personal risks?

Now note that of course the scientists would not want us to know if the personal risks outweigh the personal benefits. Their agenda is the good of society, and would want to maximize the social welfare. So, the fact that the CDC recommends it does not really prove the point.

I personally get vaccines, and will vaccinate my kids. But I'm always open to discussing things.

You're probably correct.
A quick analogy; is it "good" for the teenaged child when dad puts a cap on his spending? Of course not, however for the "good" of the family it is necessary in order to ensure that the family can afford to make their mortgage payments.

Yes, if a small number of individuals were able to forego the vaccine while everyone else received it, it would be to their personal benefit. However, nearly everything in society works this way. It would be fantastic if I could park wherever I wanted...unless everyone else did as well. As long as the risks are small and manageable and every individual is better off if everyone receives the vaccines rather than no one receiving them it is an easy choice in my mind and irresponsible to do anything else. In addition there are doctors not beholden to the govt. who research vaccines as well and are free to publish their findings (and they do).

[az]

but it is possible that they are "beholden" to there paychecks, they do work for $00,0000,000+ corporations

[az]

thank you fore your opinions,but did anyone do any research that would know, because it is a highly disputed topic,
and some of us are interested to know what people have found for ether side,thanks.

[Achas Veachas]

but it is possible that they are "beholden" to there paychecks, they do work for $00,0000,000+ corporations

Valid point and I was going to mention  it in response to henches comment. It all boils down to human nature, if there are 2 treatments and 1 is more convenient/profitable/less-of-a-headache etc. for the doctor, the doctor would be inclined to give that one (mind you they would both have to be safe otherwise that doctor would be exposing himself to massive malpractice suites).
That is the reason a רופא ידיד is recommended -even if he doesn't specialize in this particular field. He would still have the know-how to differentiate between concerns and quackery/fear-mongering.

[Barryg]

I understand now. Thank you for explaining. It was actually baffling me, trying to figure out what he was getting at.

Sorry about being brief, you'd prob have to follow the parts of the thread chronologically, but I thought that was the norm in these forums. I figured it was better to be clear but concise, rather that repeat previous posts. Thanks to the skyguy for clearing up for me...

[Barryg]

thank you fore your opinions,but did anyone do any research that would know, because it is a highly disputed topic,
and some of us are interested to know what people have found for ether side,thanks.

I brought the sources from the other side.
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24137.30
or to make it easier,

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/31/flu-vaccination-epa-safety-limit-for-mercury.aspx
http://drtenpenny.com/the-truth-about-the-flu-shot/
I'm not sold either way, but as of now optional shots like flu and chicken pox are out and reg schedule scares me a bit (I'm not so worried about my kids being exposed to hepB as an infant etc.) I am also convinced that being healthy is more important than something like vaccines, for example, taking 1000-2000 IU per day of vitamin D3 in winter (wonder if any MD's would say not to) will help immune system, possibly more than flu shot...

[Barryg]

No. The punchline would be this:

The amount of testing which must go into any FDA approved medicine (and which alternative medicine doesn't go through) makes claims such as the following sound like quackery

The problem with tests, and this is where it becomes fuzzy, is that it is very difficult to test for the long term effects and all medical tests are subject to the tester's speculation. Let's say someone is coughing a week after shot, is it because it's winter and he caught a cold or is it a side effect. Now, we're going to test 50,000 people and monitor their health for a month and judge what was caused by vaccine. The quacks also claim that the actual scientists that do the testing are heavily invested in the industry.

The main thing being discussed in this thread, unless we should change gears, is the flu vaccine. Conventional modern thought says, vaccine can't do harm, it can only help so even though it isn't 100% effective, I may as well take it (especially if it's free). Throughout the thread I am just pointing out the fear mongers have decent claims in this argument. It may be able to cause harm (still unknown) and I may be able to do other things to help avoid the flu, while making myself healthier at the same time!

[az]

I brought the sources from the other side.
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24137.30
or to make it easier,

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/31/flu-vaccination-epa-safety-limit-for-mercury.aspx
http://drtenpenny.com/the-truth-about-the-flu-shot/
I'm not sold either way, but as of now optional shots like flu and chicken pox are out and reg schedule scares me a bit (I'm not so worried about my kids being exposed to hepB as an infant etc.) I am also convinced that being healthy is more important than something like vaccines, for example, taking 1000-2000 IU per day of vitamin D3 in winter (wonder if any MD's would say not to) will help immune system, possibly more than flu shot...

wow, i dont see how one can argue without seeing this info first,a real eye opener ,did all of you go threw this info?

[Achas Veachas]

I am also convinced that being healthy is more important than something like vaccines, for example, taking 1000-2000 IU per day of vitamin D3 in winter (wonder if any MD's would say not to) will help immune system, possibly more than flu shot...

Gosh! You're promoting vitamin D more aggressively than my Dr. promotes the flu shot, you sure you aren't being paid off by the vitamin companies?

לגופו של ענין It's true that promoting immune system health will make you healthier overall (and that is done by eating a healthy balanced diet, exercising, Vitamin C, Vitamin D ETC.). But for preventing the flu nothing is is good as the flu shot.

משל למה הדבר דומה To a person who had surgery and the doctor gives him specific exercises to strengthen the muscles that were weakened by the surgery. Now this person will go ahead and say: Why should I do those exercises? They only strengthen a specific set of muscles, I may as well go on a bodybuilding regimen which would strengthen ALL my muscles...

[az]

משל למה הדבר דומה To a person who had surgery and the doctor gives him specific exercises to strengthen the muscles that were wakened by the surgery. Now this person will go ahead and say: Why should I do those exercises? They only strengthen a specific set of muscles, I may as well go on a bodybuilding regimen which would strengthen ALL my muscles...

-1

[Barryg]

wow, i dont see how one can argue without seeing this info first,a real eye opener ,did all of you go threw this info?

Yes, and spoke to many dr's about it.

Gosh! You're promoting vitamin D more aggressively than my Dr. promotes the flu shot, you sure you aren't being paid off by the vitamin companies?

It's not just me, if you open eyes you'll see that even conventional sources http://www.webmd.com/diet/vitamin-d-deficiency and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D

if reading whole wikipedia link is too long, then at least see this part from the middle of page...
Other
Vitamin D appears to have effects on immune function.[32] It has been postulated to play a role in influenza with lack of vitamin D synthesis during the winter as one explanation for high rates of influenza infection during the winter.[33]

 
Noone is gonna make a killing on selling d3, even the kosher ones. http://www.koshervitamins.com/shop/stores_app/compare_items.asp?itemids=469,468
The reason I keep mentioning is that ppl may feel irresponsible (to their health) if not getting the flu shot, or one that got the vax may look down on ppl that didn't.

לגופו של ענין It's true that promoting immune system health will make you healthier overall (and that is done by eating a healthy balanced diet, exercising, Vitamin C, Vitamin D ETC.). But for preventing the flu nothing is is good as the flu shot.

משל למה הדבר דומה To a person who had surgery and the doctor gives him specific exercises to strengthen the muscles that were weakened by the surgery. Now this person will go ahead and say: Why should I do those exercises? They only strengthen a specific set of muscles, I may as well go on a bodybuilding regimen which would strengthen ALL my muscles...

I'd say the mashal should be surgery ---> doctor ----> exercise (and medication) vs. Exercise and preventative measures to not need the surgery in the first place. Did you ever ask your doctor if vitamin supplements are a good idea? I found that if ppl don't ask they may not stress the importance, but you'll be surprised to hear your doctor's answer. (I had similar experience with probiotics and fish oil.) Dr. didn't suggest, but said that they were highly recommended when asked.

[LeeW]

What if the main worry is future side effects which weren't tested yet? I don't believe it's likely or easy to test the effects of vaccines, let's say 25-50 years down the line.

Why in the world not? vaccines have been around since the 1950's? But in general this is a bogus claim that is often used by conspiracy theorists. We know what is in the vaccines and how they affect the body and how soon they are expelled form the body. That alone gives scientists the tools to asses whether any future effects could be had. (They can't)

[rots5]

i just got the flu shot on thurs night and ive had fever, achs and pains since...then last night my throat is hurting a lot.... never again will i take one!!!!

i was told from my sons dr that my wife and i should take one - what a mistake!! 

[Saver2000]

i just got the flu shot on thurs night and ive had fever, achs and pains since...then last night my throat is hurting a lot.... never again will i take one!!!!

i was told from my sons dr that my wife and i should take one - what a mistake!!

Oy vey, refuah shilaimah!

[rots5]

Oy vey, refuah shilaimah!

thanks.. this is crazy! i never heard of this before... i should be able to sue... 

[real-brisker]

RS

[LeeW]

i just got the flu shot on thurs night and ive had fever, achs and pains since...then last night my throat is hurting a lot.... never again will i take one!!!!

i was told from my sons dr that my wife and i should take one - what a mistake!!

You do realize that unless you are allergic to eggs, the shot has absolutely nothing to do with your fever, right?

[jj1000]

You do realize that unless you are allergic to eggs, the shot has absolutely nothing to do with your fever, right?

-1 It says on the package may cause fever/aches for like 48 hours after.

[Dan]

i just got the flu shot on thurs night and ive had fever, achs and pains since...then last night my throat is hurting a lot.... never again will i take one!!!!

i was told from my sons dr that my wife and i should take one - what a mistake!! 

Why did you choose the shot over the mist?