5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread

[sammyp]

www.5townscentral.com/2021/05/30/vaad-hakashrus-of-5-towns-fr-announces-breakthrough-consumer-profiles/

This "upgrade" was promised almost a year ago.

It was put in place in order to shut down the Rabbi Forst list.

It's a pretty useless upgrade. It's very generic and doesn't include any of the hidurim of an upgraded kashrus. It does not include many of the "lists" hidurim.

The only thing this "upgrade" does is prevent the people from the "list" from double checking on the Vaad's establishments. (They have found real overlooked issues quite a few times when the Vaad admitted they were issues and needed to fix.)

A real improvement would to bring an outside agency to spot-check local establishments.

Just to point out one thing, even if this would be an improvement, this only happened as a direct result of Mehadrin opening up! Competition is a good thing!!

[JMHO]

What was the kajs issue with empire?

Word on the street is that Empire dropped KAJ to go with a 'Heimishe' hashgacha. OU + chasidish hashgacha has a much bigger mass appeal then OU + KAJ...

[JMHO]

Mehadrin opened in Aug '19
Chimichurri switched in July '20
Your timeline and logic seems off...

[sammyp]

Word on the street is that Empire dropped KAJ to go with a 'Heimishe' hashgacha. OU + chasidish hashgacha has a much bigger mass appeal then OU + KAJ...

I highly doubt KAJ is not telling the truth. They are extremely reputable and known for their honesty and integrity.

[sammyp]

Mehadrin opened in Aug '19
Chimichurri switched in July '20
You're timeline and logic seems off...

Correct. They didn't mind when Mehadrin opened up. They only cared when they actually got clients who switched over.

I have been following this through the entire time.

[JMHO]

Correct. They didn't mind when Mehadrin opened up. They only cared when they actually got clients who switched over.

I have been following this through the entire time.

Kineret joined in Sept '19...
Your timeline is off...

[JMHO]

I highly doubt KAJ is not telling the truth. They are extremely reputable and known for their honesty and integrity.

Yes they are, however Kashrus is a very dirty game...
Read their letter closely. There was no changes at Empire. Just reference to 'continue to be met'.
And 'after much discussion and deliberation with Empire'

Empire didn't need KAJ anymore... It was a business decision.

[aygart]

I highly doubt KAJ is not telling the truth. They are extremely reputable and known for their honesty and integrity.

THey didn't say anything at all.

[aygart]

Guys, bottom line here is that he likes the new hashgocha and is happy that the existing vaad is being undermined. IIRC this fits with his opinions from COVID rules too. Anything and everything that happens or happened no matter how connected or disconnected it is will be just another illustration of why he is right.

[sammyp]

Kineret joined in Sept '19...
Your timeline is off...

Kineret was never under the Vaad in the first place. It was only when eateries began to switch. That's when Vaad got nervous.

[sammyp]

Guys, bottom line here is that he likes the new hashgocha and is happy that the existing vaad is being undermined. IIRC this fits with his opinions from COVID rules too. Anything and everything that happens or happened no matter how connected or disconnected it is will be just another illustration of why he is right.

Personal attacks are warranted only when you lose on the issues.

I personally do not like the standards of the new Hashgacha. But they are step up from the Vaad.

I do not eat from most local establishments either.

I am not here to address the flaws of either Vaad. As I have information I cannot post.

The issue here was only of the Dinei Torah and lawsuit are valid.

[sammyp]

THey didn't say anything at all.

They said they were the ones to leave Empire, not the opposite.

They also removed Empire from their list and stores. They put on other poultry companies who are not certified by the KAJ, but the KAJ is more comfortable with.

[springles]

Guys, bottom line here is that he likes the new hashgocha and is happy that the existing vaad is being undermined. IIRC this fits with his opinions from COVID rules too. Anything and everything that happens or happened no matter how connected or disconnected it is will be just another illustration of why he is right.

As an outsider to this entire discussion and argument I feel the need to speak up after reading this. I just caught up on the last few pages of discussion and IMO sammyp has definitely been respectful and fair in his arguments. I may not agree with them but doesn't take away from how he has presented them. On the other hand this comment and several others seem to be trying to discount his arguments on the basis of irrelevant information and personal attacks.

[aygart]

As an outsider to this entire discussion and argument I feel the need to speak up after reading this. I just caught up on the last few pages of discussion and IMO sammyp has definitely been respectful and fair in his arguments. I may not agree with them but doesn't take away from how he has presented them. On the other hand this comment and several others seem to be trying to discount his arguments on the basis of irrelevant information and personal attacks.

THis is a direct response to items he posted. There are so many irrelevant items posted as "proof" of something that are not really relevant. SOme I have called out specifically some I didn't bother. I don't know anything about the underlying issues and his conclusions may be totally correct. I am taking issue purely with what he has written. I apologize if anything was taken as an ad hominem attack and it was not meant that way. If I am leaving that impression then I guess I am best off bowing out.

[ushdadude]

As I have been saying, there is no Kashrus issue with Mehadrin Kosher. You seem to also feel that way. You just don't like the way it was done.

That's not what i'm saying. I'm all for a Rav creating a "list" of what he feels is acceptable and disseminating it to his kehilah. This is what Rabbi Forst does.
We've established that chimichuri took a new hechsher to save money. You've established that the vaad doesn't like it because of kavod and money. We've never established why the rabbanim of the new hechsher did what they did? any suggestions? @sammyp Don't say higher standard because you've said it actually isn't.

[sammyp]

That's not what i'm saying. I'm all for a Rav creating a "list" of what he feels is acceptable and disseminating it to his kehilah. This is what Rabbi Forst does.
We've established that chimichuri took a new hechsher to save money. You've established that the vaad doesn't like it because of kavod and money. We've never established why the rabbanim of the new hechsher did what they did? any suggestions? @sammyp Don't say higher standard because you've said it actually isn't.

I thought I made clear, the new hechsher is actually a step up. They are just not where I wish they would be.

I believe they do plan, or at least did plan to make more improvements over time. Things can take time to change. They are consulting with experienced professionals in the Kashrus field.

However, this slandering of their hashgocho probably put a damper on their pans. The Vaad accomplished what they wanted to. They scared any other establishments to change over and slowed the growth and progress of Mehadrin Kosher.

What a shame!

[ushdadude]

I thought I made clear, the new hechsher is actually a step up. They are just not where I wish they would be.

I believe they do plan, or at least did plan to make more improvements over time. Things can take time to change. They are consulting with experienced professionals in the Kashrus field.

However, this slandering of their hashgocho probably put a damper on their pans. The Vaad accomplished what they wanted to. They scared any other establishments to change over and slowed the growth and progress of Mehadrin Kosher.

What a shame!

Is allowing chicken hearts a step up? Because that was one of the big changes they allowed when they took over kinneret. So again, what was their motivation to start the hechsher?
The answer can be money.

[sammyp]

Is allowing chicken hearts a step up? Because that was one of the big changes they allowed when they took over kinneret. So again, what was their motivation to start the hechsher?
The answer can be money.

I never heard anything about chicken hearts, and I do not know if you have any reliable sources.

I do know that both Rabbis of Mehadrin are respectable talmidei chochomim. Neither one is gaining money from this.

They worked with the Vaad extensively to make improvements. It failed.

Why would a Rabbi open a shul in the same vicinity of an other shul? Money? Honor? It doesn't matter. The Rabbi down the block would and should never slander the other Rabbi or his shul. They might work on improving their current shul so as to keep their members from leaving them.

The Vaad should do the same.

It does not matter why the Mehadrin opened. maybe it was l'shem shomayim, maybe money, maybe kavod. Maybe not. It doesn't matter. Regardless, they have good legal standing in Beis Din and Court.

[aygart]

It does not matter why the Mehadrin opened. maybe it was l'shem shomayim, maybe money, maybe kavod. Maybe not. It doesn't matter. Regardless, they have good legal standing in Beis Din and Court.

Did you make any choshen mishpat or legal argument? If you did I must have missed them. Please point them out.

[ushdadude]

I never heard anything about chicken hearts, and I do not know if you have any reliable sources.

I do know that both Rabbis of Mehadrin are respectable talmidei chochomim. Neither one is gaining money from this.

They worked with the Vaad extensively to make improvements. It failed.

Why would a Rabbi open a shul in the same vicinity of an other shul? Money? Honor? It doesn't matter. The Rabbi down the block would and should never slander the other Rabbi or his shul. They might work on improving their current shul so as to keep their members from leaving them.

The Vaad should do the same.

It does not matter why the Mehadrin opened. maybe it was l'shem shomayim, maybe money, maybe kavod. Maybe not. It doesn't matter. Regardless, they have good legal standing in Beis Din and Court.

My point is, call a spade a spade.


I agree there should be no slander... And that should work both ways.