Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)

[imayid2]

I see the latest edition of Heichal HaBesht just hit the shelves, and it includes, among many more articles arguably of greater pertinence and importance, a discussion on the litvish/Volozhiner minhag of apples on Hoshana Rabba night.

@imayid2 you get a copy yet? Any recommended articles to look at first?

Heard about but didn’t see it yet.

I see the latest edition of Heichal HaBesht just hit the shelves, and it includes, among many more articles arguably of greater pertinence and importance, a discussion on the litvish/Volozhiner minhag of apples on Hoshana Rabba night.

ETA:TR?

Didn't read this one but I feel like they're on 2 different planets speaking 2 different languages.

Not an accurate description. It’s a full and vicious takedown.

[dm123]

Not an accurate description.

I said I didn't read this one, just my general sense from the past.

It’s a full and vicious takedown.

And you're not getting a like for a 6 word TR, be a little more articulate 

[imayid2]

I said I didn't read this one, just my general sense from the past.

And you're not getting a like for a 6 word TR, be a little more articulate 

Lol
Can’t really do justice without going into lengthy details, if you skim it you’ll see what I mean.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-FYwOUWETFJhR3DKy0XAovWXGq4_jvV6/view?usp=sharing

[dm123]

Lol
Can’t really do justice without going into lengthy details, if you skim it you’ll see what I mean.

Thanks, will try and take a peek later

[dm123]

It’s a full and vicious takedown.

Can’t really do justice without going into lengthy details, if you skim it you’ll see what I mean.

I think he makes a number of excellent points but that would be preaching to the choir...

You see the irony in calling it a "vicious" takedown yes?

Still seems to me they are in different worlds with vastly different attitudes/hashkafos and therefore generally different understandings of the Sugya.

Perhaps I'll read through it fully later, gaining a fuller understanding and do a full TR on it, though what little I glanced at gave me an impression Marc Shapiro's responses went over R' Grossman's head. (for example "technique 2" what he was trying to say re: the Gaon pg 166 and technique 3 what Shapiro's trying to prove from the Mishna Berurah pg 167-169) Although as mentioned I only glanced at it so very likely I am grossly misunderstanding him.

[imayid2]

I think he makes a number of excellent points but that would be preaching to the choir...

You see the irony in calling it a "vicious" takedown yes?

Still seems to me they are in different worlds with vastly different attitudes/hashkafos and therefore generally different understandings of the Sugya.

Perhaps I'll read through it fully later, gaining a fuller understanding and do a full TR on it, though what little I glanced at gave me an impression Marc Shapiro's responses went over R' Grossman's head. (for example "technique 2" what he was trying to say re: the Gaon pg 166 and technique 3 what Shapiro's trying to prove from the Mishna Berurah pg 167-169) Although as mentioned I only glanced at it so very likely I am grossly misunderstanding him.

I wasn’t as enamored with the MB thing, but re the gra it’s a full fledged takedown so you’re going to have to explain why you don’t think so. Especially when you factor in MSs epic botch of the Magid mishna.

[dm123]

I wasn’t as enamored with the MB thing

Interesting choice of words... You usually don't hesitate to call a spade a spade. Did I misunderstand R Grossman or did Shapiro's response totally fly over R Grossman's head? Not saying Shapiro's response is great, but it seems to be a clear misunderstanding, to say the least.

re the gra it’s a full fledged takedown so you’re going to have to explain why you don’t think so.

Does R Grossman expand on it later? I only saw and therefore going on pg 167

[imayid2]

Interesting choice of words... You usually don't hesitate to call a spade a spade. Did I misunderstand R Grossman or did Shapiro's response totally fly over R Grossman's head? Not saying Shapiro's response is great, but it seems to be a clear misunderstanding, to say the least.

I don’t think he misunderstood him, rather is attempting to portray MSs response as absurd, but fails to account for the fact that we don’t just pasken like every yerushlmi out there.

Does R Grossman expand on it later? I only saw and therefore going on pg 167

Yes see 174-175 and 184-185. It’s an explicit Gemara that he missed.

[imayid2]

Perhaps I'll read through it fully later, gaining a fuller understanding and do a full TR on it

Please do!

[imayid2]

Interesting choice of words... You usually don't hesitate to call a spade a spade. Did I misunderstand R Grossman or did Shapiro's response totally fly over R Grossman's head? Not saying Shapiro's response is great, but it seems to be a clear misunderstanding, to say the least.

Just looked it over. No there is absolutely no misunderstanding. Shapiros response is comical, he’s basically saying that theoretically had the Rambam decided you don’t need to believe these things the MB wouldn’t pasken against him.
That’s totally absurd, because being that it’s explicit in the Yerushlmi the Rambam wouldn’t be able to say otherwise (without adequate proof the the bavli argues) just because he didn’t like it. His point in his book, which was the major effects the Rambam had on Halacha with his innovation in this regard is totally negated.

BTW in his book he had written that he couldn’t find the ישועות יעקב the MB had quoted. Not getting involved why he couldn’t find it when it’s right there, but had he seen it he would have seen he’s literally quoting the ירושלמי.

[dm123]

Please do!

To be quite honest I'm probably gonna look at the Heichal HaBesht when I have time first, not sure when I'll get to looking at R Grossman's piece properly.

[aygart]

Hmmmm.

[dm123]

REPOST!

Very big hmmm indeed, to say the least.

[aygart]

REPOST!
Very big hmmm indeed, to say the least.

Missed that one.

[Ygold]

Why is this such a hot topic lately?
Was it only recently banned or something?
There was also this big discussion on a hashkafa whatsapp group recently about this topic.

https://chat.whatsapp.com/CTce9UA874gLejsmRj2D71

For those interested.

[imayid2]

Davidowitz on פשוטו של מקרא
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13m1UL-JSYCM5m8wR8bN4BBFyXv81uAmO/view?usp=drivesdk

[imayid2]

[Moshe Green]

Fictional Story:
You board the plane with your wife and you're settling in. You notice a few rows down there's an obviously Frum looking individual who was (gasp!) placed next to a 4 year old girl, and hes getting antsy. He looks around desperatly for someone to help and spots a harried looking flight attendant.
"Sir, can you move my seat".
"Please sit down", the FA answers back, "after we take off we will try to help you."
"No!, I must move now!".
"It's a packed flight, sir, we will try to help you after we take off, but i'm very busy now".
You realize what's happening and quickly explain it to your wife. He's very frum, not wanting to sit next to a girl, but with absolutely no basis in Halacha, and there's a very good chance that this could make a Chillul Hashem, if one already wasn't made, you believe that you should do something.
"Should i go over and calm him down?" You ask your wife.
The next part has 2 endings:
1: Your wife shrugs her shoulders. "I don't know why you should get involved. Its his problem not yours. Also, you should mind your own business."
2: Your wife thinks for a second. "Yeah, i guess so. I mean, if you can can prevent another story going out in a nice way, why not?"
You go over to the fellow.
"You know, it's not really Assur." You patiently explain. "No Posek holds that there's an issue here. And definitely if its only until takeoff."
He looks at you with fire in his eyes. "I don't know why your getting involved! Mind your own business!"

Who is right? Assuming that the Frum passenger is wrong for doing what he did:
Should our hero involve himself in what was going on?
Was our Frum passenger correct when he told our hero to mind his own business?

[aygart]

Fictional Story:
You board the plane with your wife and you're settling in. You notice a few rows down there's an obviously Frum looking individual who was (gasp!) placed next to a 4 year old girl, and hes getting antsy. He looks around desperatly for someone to help and spots a harried looking flight attendant.
"Sir, can you move my seat".
"Please sit down", the FA answers back, "after we take off we will try to help you."
"No!, I must move now!".
"It's a packed flight, sir, we will try to help you after we take off, but i'm very busy now".
You realize what's happening and quickly explain it to your wife. He's very frum, not wanting to sit next to a girl, but with absolutely no basis in Halacha, and there's a very good chance that this could make a Chillul Hashem, if one already wasn't made, you believe that you should do something.
"Should i go over and calm him down?" You ask your wife.
The next part has 2 endings:
1: Your wife shrugs her shoulders. "I don't know why you should get involved. Its his problem not yours. Also, you should mind your own business."
2: Your wife thinks for a second. "Yeah, i guess so. I mean, if you can can prevent another story going out in a nice way, why not?"
You go over to the fellow.
"You know, it's not really Assur." You patiently explain. "No Posek holds that there's an issue here. And definitely if its only until takeoff."
He looks at you with fire in his eyes. "I don't know why your getting involved! Mind your own business!"

Who is right? Assuming that the Frum passenger is wrong for doing what he did:
Should our hero involve himself in what was going on?
Was our Frum passenger correct when he told our hero to mind his own business?

There is also another way to diffuse the situation and that is for your wife to switch with him.

[JMHO]

Who is right?

You of course!
And everyone else is wrong!